US India diplomatic row over Devyani Khobragade escalates
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Why are people even discussing about the salary of the domestic help and whether she should have been content with whatever she is getting and keep her mouth shut. On the same lines, neither is Devayani's history of scams and abuse of power and influence of any relevance to the case itself. It only establishes her character to people like us.
The indirect relevance of the salary is that the law will consider it has underpayment of wages if its less than the legal limit. But I think there are other offences as well that would be slapped on her like for example misrepresentation of information.
Even in India, misrepresenting or withholding information in a passport application for example is an offence punishable by 5 years of imprisonment.
Then there is also possibility of criminal intimidation of the domestic help and her husband from what I read of the case.
Indians in US and diplomats in particular have been known in the past for exploitation and mistreatment of domestic help and given Devayanis own history of using influence to get what ever she wanted through out her career, I have no problem believing that Devayani did whatever she could to corner and persecute the domestic help and her family in India when she wanted to leave. It is more than likely that she is guilty.
The question is whether she was arrested despite having diplomatic immunity or was the immunity was provided to her to protect her from any action.
Lastly, I think the people in the country are just mad that the cops who arrested her went by the book and treated her the exact same way that they would treat any other visa fraudster or illegal immigrant instead of doting 5 star treatment that politicians in India get.
After all, our country men are so very particular about ones stature. A poor man who steals 100 Rs would be thrown in jail and his bones broken. The people who steal crores would be treated royally even if they go to jail.
The indirect relevance of the salary is that the law will consider it has underpayment of wages if its less than the legal limit. But I think there are other offences as well that would be slapped on her like for example misrepresentation of information.
Even in India, misrepresenting or withholding information in a passport application for example is an offence punishable by 5 years of imprisonment.
Then there is also possibility of criminal intimidation of the domestic help and her husband from what I read of the case.
Indians in US and diplomats in particular have been known in the past for exploitation and mistreatment of domestic help and given Devayanis own history of using influence to get what ever she wanted through out her career, I have no problem believing that Devayani did whatever she could to corner and persecute the domestic help and her family in India when she wanted to leave. It is more than likely that she is guilty.
The question is whether she was arrested despite having diplomatic immunity or was the immunity was provided to her to protect her from any action.
Lastly, I think the people in the country are just mad that the cops who arrested her went by the book and treated her the exact same way that they would treat any other visa fraudster or illegal immigrant instead of doting 5 star treatment that politicians in India get.
After all, our country men are so very particular about ones stature. A poor man who steals 100 Rs would be thrown in jail and his bones broken. The people who steal crores would be treated royally even if they go to jail.
allow me to dissect and attempt to put forth a few points that may have escaped attention.
...probably because i think the case was raised and followed up on the grounds of paying a low wage and misrepresentation of (visa) documents pertaining to the maid and all that. nobody said that Ms. Sangeeta should've been content with whatever she was being paid and shut up. after her disappearance act, she went untraceable. the Khobragade family tried to locate her and her cellphone no., but her husband kept insisting (lying) that he wasn't in talks with her. this being a grave matter, Mr. Uttam sought the help of Delhi Police, got the no. of Ms. Sangeeta, and this is what allegedly followed --> she made a demand of a good rise in her wage (i think to be made USD 10k), which was agreed to by Mr. Uttam, there was one 2nd demand, which i can't recall now, which was also agreed to, and the third was to get visa & other formalities completed for her family, to which Mr. Uttam categorically denied, as this required intervention of the GOI and presence of the person who required visa and something of that sort, though Mr. Uttam said that he can certainly arrange to get her flown back here and then take assistance from him on all that, to which Sangeeta's reply was - "par ek baar udhar aaye to phir waapas US nahin aa sakte na!" (this is what i think was one of the preliminary pointers that led the suspicion towards immigrant-settler lobby behind the play).
that 'misrepresentation of information' or 'misinformation' thing is what Devayani's advocate (or whatever its called in american-terms) and the GOI is contesting against the most, and which Mr. Uttam has been crying out loud the whole time even before this was taken up by that advocate - that the documents were filled and signed by Sangeeta, and that a nation that has English as its first language, misunderstands 'employee's salary' as 'employer's salary', one of the points on which the case was built up, and this being so stupid a mistake, that overlooking it seems deliberate.
there might be, but as far as one could gather, it was the other way round here, except that the Delhi HC had summoned Sangeeta's husband, unless, ofcourse, the american global upholders of humanitarian values consider this as 'criminal intimidation', which they certainly indirectly put forward as an argument to 'evacuate' Sangeeta's family, through Uncle Tom Bharara.
could be. although little-to-nothing yet is out about that to make us incline in believeing so i think. as far as the supposed 'exploitation and mistreatment' in this particular case is concerned, pages from the diary of Sangeeta have enough details on those. she was also given the option of flying her back here if she was allegedly feeling so suffocated there, to which her reply is now self-explanatory.
not to interject, but the answer could very well be that if that 'whole world's burden' country could get its CIA operative and his cronies out of Pakistan fabricating some 'immunity' for them, why shouldn't this country also try its might to get its diplomat out of HARM's way, when here, she *actually* had/has some form of immunity?! immunity isn't provided to selective candidates of the services i suppose; its governed by some conventions. however, its true that the whole concept of 'immunity' was invented by these western nations to keep their representatives and their self-interests safe in other nations, something like the original concept of 'free trade'. making use of just that, it was infact 'provided' to Mr. Raymond Davis, who didn't already have it as per the conventions, and not certainly his aides, and here, the immunity was already in place on account of her being from one of those services that are covered under those very conventions. diplomacy is based solely/mostly on bilateral relations, so i suppose it means fine to act tit-for-tat in such cases. what you can do, certainly i could do (and the GOI had done this against america/a lobby of american MNCs, i think sometime in 2013; ear-pinching met with arm-twisting! but that's another case)!
mad & fuming? rightly so! the way she was treated isn't 'procedurally' reserved for fraudsters, but for grade 3/4 convicts (murderers, psychopaths, drug-traffickers, etc.). sam has been harping the tune that it did what it has been doing - i don't suppose it did that either to Mr. Rajat Gupta or Mr. Mitt Romney any time!
and being a representative there of this nation, its a scathing strike on you, me, the nation if s/he is humiliated like that and framed in such a sham to score some political points over there, which am inclined to believe is what is happening. if one can understand the plight of a poor man thrashed in a jail, it shouldn't be a problem to self-identify with the harsh treatment meted out to one's representative ('raajdoot ka apamaan, raaja/praja/raajya ka apamaan.' an age-old understanding everywhere). whatever gripe we have with that woman Ms. Devayani, it can wait & be sorted out when she comes back. but, for now, first things first! may seem a little jingoistic or whatever in reading, but you need to be so sometimes; a just & rightful unadulterated aggression against the false has the sublime and searing capacity to knock the daylights off of the crooked and the wicked! sports and war can't be engaged in without such a feeling, and this is a battle here we have at hand.
we surely have very sad issues in our homeland that need more serious than just serious thought and remedies, as you have correctly pointed out, but exercising self-introspection can be had after some respite from the issue-at-hand first, or at best, in tandem. its akin someone who has a close friend or relative who is fond of music and dancing, is walking on a road/footpath in merry, singing his tune, narrowly escapes an accident by a motorcyclist who was busy ogling at a girl passing-by, shifts the blame on our friend here, says he distracted him by his humming and waving hands, and readies himself to beat him. as a friend or relative, i think one would first try to fizzle the heat out of the situation, calm things down, get him out of there, and then sort things out in whatever way one may deem fit. would one think - "heh! that bugger, always singing and dancing here-and-there. good riddance! should first look at himself/ourselves, then blame others. now let him get some prasaad!"?!
borrowing from a more close, day-to-day scenario, this is what is seen mostly in road-rage and road-fight incidents - at that time, no one would accept his/her folly, but try to justify his/her mistake in order to beat down the 'opponent' verbally/physically, who-so-ever may be at fault. why then here so much imploring to first check our faults and then preach and all that thing, when off the PC and on the road we go & forget all that moral science? and when infact here much indicates that there's little-to-no fault lying with the victim (being projected as the perpetrator).
i have seen some comments suggesting just this, that we should first clean our own backyard and then climb on to point the faults of others. nope! contingency measures first! cleaning and lesson-driving later. in this case, trying to get her back (and that absconding maid and her family) from that unnecessary mess should be the first priority. trying her for what she did here or did not do, second. then seriously introspecting our own faults, followed by thorough measures to terminate them, reform (labour) laws as well as our attitude, and keep everything in check as a follow-up (including keeping a stringent check on domestic helps sent to foreign soil with diplomats too, as our universal love for the gori chamadi is well-known. i had heard that the GOI is considering abolishing this practice altogether; diplomats to hire help from the locals of that land itself now!).
rarely do we see our govt. taking a tough stand on anything other than dishing out some tough criticisms'. please don't rob it of this opportunity. waise, thoda zyaada ho gaya.
...probably because i think the case was raised and followed up on the grounds of paying a low wage and misrepresentation of (visa) documents pertaining to the maid and all that. nobody said that Ms. Sangeeta should've been content with whatever she was being paid and shut up. after her disappearance act, she went untraceable. the Khobragade family tried to locate her and her cellphone no., but her husband kept insisting (lying) that he wasn't in talks with her. this being a grave matter, Mr. Uttam sought the help of Delhi Police, got the no. of Ms. Sangeeta, and this is what allegedly followed --> she made a demand of a good rise in her wage (i think to be made USD 10k), which was agreed to by Mr. Uttam, there was one 2nd demand, which i can't recall now, which was also agreed to, and the third was to get visa & other formalities completed for her family, to which Mr. Uttam categorically denied, as this required intervention of the GOI and presence of the person who required visa and something of that sort, though Mr. Uttam said that he can certainly arrange to get her flown back here and then take assistance from him on all that, to which Sangeeta's reply was - "par ek baar udhar aaye to phir waapas US nahin aa sakte na!" (this is what i think was one of the preliminary pointers that led the suspicion towards immigrant-settler lobby behind the play).
that 'misrepresentation of information' or 'misinformation' thing is what Devayani's advocate (or whatever its called in american-terms) and the GOI is contesting against the most, and which Mr. Uttam has been crying out loud the whole time even before this was taken up by that advocate - that the documents were filled and signed by Sangeeta, and that a nation that has English as its first language, misunderstands 'employee's salary' as 'employer's salary', one of the points on which the case was built up, and this being so stupid a mistake, that overlooking it seems deliberate.
there might be, but as far as one could gather, it was the other way round here, except that the Delhi HC had summoned Sangeeta's husband, unless, ofcourse, the american global upholders of humanitarian values consider this as 'criminal intimidation', which they certainly indirectly put forward as an argument to 'evacuate' Sangeeta's family, through Uncle Tom Bharara.
could be. although little-to-nothing yet is out about that to make us incline in believeing so i think. as far as the supposed 'exploitation and mistreatment' in this particular case is concerned, pages from the diary of Sangeeta have enough details on those. she was also given the option of flying her back here if she was allegedly feeling so suffocated there, to which her reply is now self-explanatory.
not to interject, but the answer could very well be that if that 'whole world's burden' country could get its CIA operative and his cronies out of Pakistan fabricating some 'immunity' for them, why shouldn't this country also try its might to get its diplomat out of HARM's way, when here, she *actually* had/has some form of immunity?! immunity isn't provided to selective candidates of the services i suppose; its governed by some conventions. however, its true that the whole concept of 'immunity' was invented by these western nations to keep their representatives and their self-interests safe in other nations, something like the original concept of 'free trade'. making use of just that, it was infact 'provided' to Mr. Raymond Davis, who didn't already have it as per the conventions, and not certainly his aides, and here, the immunity was already in place on account of her being from one of those services that are covered under those very conventions. diplomacy is based solely/mostly on bilateral relations, so i suppose it means fine to act tit-for-tat in such cases. what you can do, certainly i could do (and the GOI had done this against america/a lobby of american MNCs, i think sometime in 2013; ear-pinching met with arm-twisting! but that's another case)!
mad & fuming? rightly so! the way she was treated isn't 'procedurally' reserved for fraudsters, but for grade 3/4 convicts (murderers, psychopaths, drug-traffickers, etc.). sam has been harping the tune that it did what it has been doing - i don't suppose it did that either to Mr. Rajat Gupta or Mr. Mitt Romney any time!
and being a representative there of this nation, its a scathing strike on you, me, the nation if s/he is humiliated like that and framed in such a sham to score some political points over there, which am inclined to believe is what is happening. if one can understand the plight of a poor man thrashed in a jail, it shouldn't be a problem to self-identify with the harsh treatment meted out to one's representative ('raajdoot ka apamaan, raaja/praja/raajya ka apamaan.' an age-old understanding everywhere). whatever gripe we have with that woman Ms. Devayani, it can wait & be sorted out when she comes back. but, for now, first things first! may seem a little jingoistic or whatever in reading, but you need to be so sometimes; a just & rightful unadulterated aggression against the false has the sublime and searing capacity to knock the daylights off of the crooked and the wicked! sports and war can't be engaged in without such a feeling, and this is a battle here we have at hand.
we surely have very sad issues in our homeland that need more serious than just serious thought and remedies, as you have correctly pointed out, but exercising self-introspection can be had after some respite from the issue-at-hand first, or at best, in tandem. its akin someone who has a close friend or relative who is fond of music and dancing, is walking on a road/footpath in merry, singing his tune, narrowly escapes an accident by a motorcyclist who was busy ogling at a girl passing-by, shifts the blame on our friend here, says he distracted him by his humming and waving hands, and readies himself to beat him. as a friend or relative, i think one would first try to fizzle the heat out of the situation, calm things down, get him out of there, and then sort things out in whatever way one may deem fit. would one think - "heh! that bugger, always singing and dancing here-and-there. good riddance! should first look at himself/ourselves, then blame others. now let him get some prasaad!"?!
borrowing from a more close, day-to-day scenario, this is what is seen mostly in road-rage and road-fight incidents - at that time, no one would accept his/her folly, but try to justify his/her mistake in order to beat down the 'opponent' verbally/physically, who-so-ever may be at fault. why then here so much imploring to first check our faults and then preach and all that thing, when off the PC and on the road we go & forget all that moral science? and when infact here much indicates that there's little-to-no fault lying with the victim (being projected as the perpetrator).
i have seen some comments suggesting just this, that we should first clean our own backyard and then climb on to point the faults of others. nope! contingency measures first! cleaning and lesson-driving later. in this case, trying to get her back (and that absconding maid and her family) from that unnecessary mess should be the first priority. trying her for what she did here or did not do, second. then seriously introspecting our own faults, followed by thorough measures to terminate them, reform (labour) laws as well as our attitude, and keep everything in check as a follow-up (including keeping a stringent check on domestic helps sent to foreign soil with diplomats too, as our universal love for the gori chamadi is well-known. i had heard that the GOI is considering abolishing this practice altogether; diplomats to hire help from the locals of that land itself now!).
rarely do we see our govt. taking a tough stand on anything other than dishing out some tough criticisms'. please don't rob it of this opportunity. waise, thoda zyaada ho gaya.
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I am not blaming you for anything. But in this case I am going to side with India. Cause the lead up to this case seems shady to me. India is far far more corrupt than America, I am not going to defend that. Asking me to prove something which is all ready apparent, makes no sense. You can continue to hinge your believes around this on America. It is allowed...! I really do not see any injustice here, anyways. With the maid running away, and a flag being raised, and our side saying that the document was read incorrect. I see it as a clear case of someone trying to get a US Green Card, pronto. And be done away with India, for good. But now we are all going to be PC and become human-rights activists...! Great.
I used the word graft in negative connotation, and not literal.
Which case is not full-blown...? The Adharsh one is. So is this one now...! How will her return, stop-rail the investigation...?
Meaning..?
Which is just as good as what I quoted, but from India's side. So we are even-steven...! I can foresee: The diplomat getting jail time, Mr. Preet B expediting / fast-tracking his career, the maid + family becoming naturalized US Citizens, the petty meddling of diplomatic relations between India and US (alphabetical) hitting a low. Missions and commissions will continue, but a wedge has been driven in. Why..? US has a military nexus (Pakistan) which they needed as a gateway into Central Asia, so they cared nothing for India, and down right showed us too..! We have been shown our "aukath" (standing) in one jolt, and it speaks a lot for us a nation. Time to wake up. At time naivety has to be shown, but this was not the case. Even we let the Italian Marines go back, and today their court appearance has been passed off, due to an FIR not put in place. That is how aspects should be handled. People make mistakes..? Right..? Who does not...? Maybe God..? I am not asking a pardon for the diplomat (IF: she is guilty), nor the diplomatic cover to let her off: scot-free, but America could have thought this through with more maturity, rather then pin their activities on a progress seeking attorney coupled with an absconding service-women from her employer..!
Flying out the family is the worst activity they could have done. It does not surprise me: why youth are so easily radicalized against America. See the hatred which is spewing in this thread against America, cause they arrested an officer of a nation and flew out non-nationals in a sneaky manner. Imagine, how people feel: when their nations are invaded and troops march down...! Do you not feel that sense, or smell (or stink) which reeks of an invasion of national rights and interfering where one should not have. Yes, before you type it in, the incident took place on US soil, what after that...? No information was passed to Indian authorities, and we were not informed before her husband and kids were extracted / ejected from India. Yes, India(ns) are butt-hurt over this incidence. We may have been caught with our pants down, but our knickers are where they should be...! LOL. This is going to go murky and messy. Wait and watch.
Answered above, sorry for not being succinct..!
sid meant that only if you could open up and explain earlier what you meant by how 'many indians feel this country to be a s***-hole', which you explained later in your last-to-last post.
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blr_p
Skilled
No, i said this maid was given an opportunity to make as much. No other profession would get such a salary bump just by going to the US. Not now a days, 2 decades ago it would have been different. Even then the ratio of those abroad as a % of the population remained unchanged.
This is not to say people will not go abroad, they will if there is a sufficient incentive.
Offering the same pay to go abroad as what one makes in India isn't really a reason to go at all. When you go abroad the expectation is you will make more. You will find this hard to believe but Indians are a rather insular lot. They don't travel well. If you look at indians abroad as a percentage of the population its about 4%. This in fact is no different to americans abroad. We, just like them think our country is the centre of the universe.
I don't know whether sangeetha will actually have a better lifestyle. What are her skills ? she's a domestic, maybe she might graduate to care in a home or hospital. She has no qualifications to speak of otherwise. Her win is if she actually gets a big settlement. In neena malhotra's case the maid at the time was awarded $1.5 million by the court but she never got to collect because malhotra was out of the country. The same i expect in this case as well. That is no matter how much Devyani gets fined sangeetha won't see a penny. At this early point in time it remains to be seen whether she will even be charged in the first place. I expect she will but she won't serve any sentence and there will be no way for the US to make her pay the fine.
Sangeeta will get to stay in the US, after that its up to her and her husband to scrounge out a living.
Was reading an article in my daily today and maids going against employers and then ending up with a T-1 has happened to number of other nationals as well. The main pattern is accuse the employer, get a t-1, testify and then get a green card after a few years. You have to be pretty desperate to do this.
Sangeetha was not fleeing trafficking or persecution. She was making good money and then got greedy.
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that right there is the crux of the matter which others are forgetting or obfuscating & going into other tangents. if things had gone like in the neena malhotra case ie. case being filed, etc then this outcry would not have been there.
we should've should've taken a stand much earlier esp. when President Kalam was not treated correctly.
Wrong sequence of events....
#Maid goes missing.
#Maid's official Visa is revoked.
#Maid's family refuses to help Indian govt. in filing missing persons report.
#Maid turns up, tries to extort diplomat.
#Diplomat gets arrest warrant for maid.
#Maids family flown to US.
#Two days later, Diplomat is arrested.
1. Diplomat is back home sans family.
2. Diplomat who aided in ejection of house helps's family given 48H notice to leave.
3. Embassy cars fined for violation on roads (including tinted glasses).
4. House help gives a cryptic message to the public.
Kick to the nuts.
Not ignored, that's the most obvious point of the case .. so no need re iterate that.
Another point to consider would be how the maid survived for 6 months while 'fleeing' from her employer .. ? with No VISA, no money ..
And how the US State Dept. continually stonewalled efforts by the Indian Diplomatic Mission to track down the absconding maid who was staying illegally in the US.
US State Dept possibly harbouring a wanted Indian Citizen, refusing to co-operate with their Indian counterparts for an investigation.
Vilifying our Justice System ..
This is just a case of greedy opportunism gone bad ..[DOUBLEPOST=1389451405][/DOUBLEPOST]
I dont follow .. could you explain ?
Basically what happened past 2 days. She is back here....!
He(or she?) should've been booked for the racist remarks rather than other frivolous "crimes." Though I see that they were made more than a year ago.
Now, coming back to the real deal: http://indianexpress.com/article/in...n-adarsh-flats-are-casteist-diplomats-father/
We're all casteists
Now, coming back to the real deal: http://indianexpress.com/article/in...n-adarsh-flats-are-casteist-diplomats-father/
We're all casteists
It it hadn't been for May and US taking this seriously, Sangeetha would have ended up as a rotting corpse and her husband would probably have been thrown into jail for good on some bogus case or end up with same fate as her. Lets hope they don't have to come back to India ever again to suffer persecution the hands of the Khobragade family.
If Devayani's father was powerful enough to influence the IFS selection guidelines for just one year to favor Devayani over more qualified candidates, then these people are capable of using that influence for doing anything at all.
God only knows how much the domestic help must have been made to suffer for her take the risk of running away like that and how much that family must have been persecuted for defying Devayani. They were slapped with extortion cases and what not, just because the domestic help asked for due remuneration. She didn't ask for hundreds of thousands of dollars, she only asked for what was due to her for making her work 19 hours per day and if the figure I read is right, she didn't even ask the kind of amount that she would have deserved. The husband was also framed even while the Khobragade family threatened them with dire consequences for speaking out. I can imagine the kind of fate they would end up with if they ever come within reach of Devayani or her families influence again.
If Devayani's father was powerful enough to influence the IFS selection guidelines for just one year to favor Devayani over more qualified candidates, then these people are capable of using that influence for doing anything at all.
God only knows how much the domestic help must have been made to suffer for her take the risk of running away like that and how much that family must have been persecuted for defying Devayani. They were slapped with extortion cases and what not, just because the domestic help asked for due remuneration. She didn't ask for hundreds of thousands of dollars, she only asked for what was due to her for making her work 19 hours per day and if the figure I read is right, she didn't even ask the kind of amount that she would have deserved. The husband was also framed even while the Khobragade family threatened them with dire consequences for speaking out. I can imagine the kind of fate they would end up with if they ever come within reach of Devayani or her families influence again.