PC Peripherals UPS power consumption when idle

Adding random info that I learned a few hours ago for anyone who's reading through this thread:

Out of AGM/VRLA, SMF, and Flooded (Tubular/Jumbo Tubular/Tall Tubular) batteries, it's the Tall Tubular ones that have the longest life (and hence, the longest warranty, upto 60 months for some models). AGM/VRLA/SMF are mostly for convenience/safety at the cost of a shorter lifespan. For FLA (flooded lead acid) batteries, you need to periodically check water levels and specific gravity (once every month to every three months) and in return you'll get 5+ years of life out of them. FLA batteries also release hydrogen (along with oxygen) so they need to be in a ventilated area, the other types of LA batteries trap and force these gases to recombine.

As with all lead acid batteries, it's important to charge them as soon as possible after they've been drained, otherwise something called sulphonation occurs which drastically decreases battery capacity. It can be reversed/overcome by overcharging the batteries in a pulsatic pattern to 'burn off' the sulphates from the lead plates but that does not always work and the battery needs to be disposed for recycling. Lead Acid batteries are +90% recyclable, especially in countries like ours.

lockhrt999 said:
@rsaeon mate, can you place your 150Ah on its side?
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As @n1r0 explained, there are different types of lead acid batteries but they all work on the same basic principle.

It feels like you've had a bad experience with APC that you're equating with poor design/quality. Honestly, that's not unexpected — APC is an premium brand, with higher pricing than the alternatives and as a result they're not selling in the same numbers as the other brands so it's possible the APC you purchased was older stock with batteries that were all partially depleted because they sat unused/unsold for months/years.

Lead Acid batteries have a fixed shelf life, they will eventually become unusable if they're not put into service, this depletion is non-reversible — It's essential to make sure you buy newly manufactured batteries when it comes time to replace them.

This has happened to me with my Back UPS 750 (not the dual battery one I mentioned previously, this is a different, more "budget" model), it needed new batteries within a year. But that replacement battery (Luminous brand) lasted three years powering a router and wireless access point.
 
So I had an old APC BR1100-CI UPS which has 2 X 7 Ah batteries inside them. It was purchased sometime in mid 2014 and then replaced completely once in 2016 under warranty as it developed some fault and could not charge the batteries anymore.
Surprisingly after that it worked well till early 2023 which is almost 7 years!
During this time I only had replaced the batteries by myself once or maybe twice don't remember exactly. I always bought those exide chloride series batteries which were rated 7Ah.

But earlier this year, the UPS indicated that the batteries needed replacement again. So this time I bought the exide powersafe 7.5Ah series thinking it would provide me better backup.
However the UPS was unable to charge them. Now I don't know whether the UPS itself had gone bad again or whether the new batteries were bad ones. So I tried to get the new batteries replaced once but the shopkeeper proved it to me that there was no fault in the batteries as he was able to charge them with an external charger that he had.

Now as I had already spent close to 2800 (2500 mrp and 300 he took for charging them when I claimed it was bad) on the new batteries, I didn't want to abandon them so purchased a separate charger from Amazon for around 850. Then I was able to charge each battery individually outside the UPS and then use them until they got discharged.
I had to repeat this entire process every 2-3 days depending on the power cut scenario.

Gradually I got tired of doing this and ordered another APC 1600VA ups for my PC and put the old one in use with our TV instead.
Now I charge the batteries maybe every 4-5 days once when I feel like it or I just leave it as is till the point I can tolerate the "change batteries" beeping sound the UPS makes.

So I got few questions :-
  1. Is there anything I can do to fix the charging situation on the old UPS? Do I try to repair the UPS or see if it works with 7ah batteries?

  2. What is the final verdict on keeping the mains on for the new UPS? Do I keep it connected to mains all the time or disconnect them at night like I already do?
    I don't want to tinker or open the new UPS in any manner at the moment as it is new so still got 2 years of warranty.

  3. Anyone knows what kind of setup is there in this APC 1600VA ups? it is the same 2 X 7 ah batteries?
 
goDofWar_skr said:
Is there anything I can do to fix the charging situation on the old UPS?
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This is usually a very simple repair, often involves replacing a single component, a mosfet. I had it done a few times some ~15 years ago for less than 500 each time, and I was overpaying since the actual component was less than Rs 50 at the time (probably still is — the margin on these things is crazy high, like over 50% of the purchase price goes towards the size and weight of the thing, like most other household appliances).

 
rsaeon said:
Adding random info that I learned a few hours ago for anyone who's reading through this thread:

Out of AGM/VRLA, SMF, and Flooded (Tubular/Jumbo Tubular/Tall Tubular) batteries, it's the Tall Tubular ones that have the longest life (and hence, the longest warranty, upto 60 months for some models). AGM/VRLA/SMF are mostly for convenience/safety at the cost of a shorter lifespan. For FLA (flooded lead acid) batteries, you need to periodically check water levels and specific gravity (once every month to every three months) and in return you'll get 5+ years of life out of them. FLA batteries also release hydrogen (along with oxygen) so they need to be in a ventilated area, the other types of LA batteries trap and force these gases to recombine.

As with all lead acid batteries, it's important to charge them as soon as possible after they've been drained, otherwise something called sulphonation occurs which drastically decreases battery capacity. It can be reversed/overcome by overcharging the batteries in a pulsatic pattern to 'burn off' the sulphates from the lead plates but that does not always work and the battery needs to be disposed for recycling. Lead Acid batteries are +90% recyclable, especially in countries like ours.



As @n1r0 explained, there are different types of lead acid batteries but they all work on the same basic principle.

It feels like you've had a bad experience with APC that you're equating with poor design/quality. Honestly, that's not unexpected — APC is an premium brand, with higher pricing than the alternatives and as a result they're not selling in the same numbers as the other brands so it's possible the APC you purchased was older stock with batteries that were all partially depleted because they sat unused/unsold for months/years.

Lead Acid batteries have a fixed shelf life, they will eventually become unusable if they're not put into service, this depletion is non-reversible — It's essential to make sure you buy newly manufactured batteries when it comes time to replace them.

This has happened to me with my Back UPS 750 (not the dual battery one I mentioned previously, this is a different, more "budget" model), it needed new batteries within a year. But that replacement battery (Luminous brand) lasted three years powering a router and wireless access point.
Click to expand...
On the opposite I read that gel batteries, agm batteries have higher lifespan than flooded lead acid

www.foxtronpowersolutions.com

Gel Battery vs. Lead Acid: The Differences Explained

Learn how each battery works, their pros and cons, and more!
www.foxtronpowersolutions.com
 
Abhi_Mahant said:
On the opposite I read that gel batteries, agm batteries have higher lifespan than flooded lead acid
Click to expand...

That link summarizes the technologies well, with the exception of stating that FLA batteries don't last very long, it might be referencing plate batteries instead of tubular ones.

Gel batteries are not well suited as a constantly reusable power source because they require very slow charging, which is a luxury in an application like UPS.

AGM/VRLA often are priced much higher than FLA, a 100Ah AGM/VRLA would be very close in price to a 150Ah FLA.

I have four agm/vrla batteries because I thought they were cool and maintenance free, but now two years later I wish I had gotten tall tubular ones instead.

Amaron's AGM/VRLA batteries have a 3 year warranty, but their FLA batteries have a 5 year warranty, which is what I used as a basis for battery life.

WTF Is the Deal With Batteries Tutorial - Solar Panels - Solar Panels Forum

You have a battery or energy storage question, post your comment here. Talk about the various batteries, from lead acid, to lithium ion, to Ni.
www.solarpaneltalk.com
 
kiran6680 said:
Yes, legitimate concerns, I have no idea. The battery replacement problem is solved by jugad in India : the third party service people replace the battery with another one having similar dimensions (or smaller, so that it fits) and similar characteristics. The popular UPS models have their own first party and third party battery parts available.

This being Li ion, newer and hence the market may not have been established yet.
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I replaced my APC BackUPS 1000 batteries with genuine Exide batteries and the backup and switching speed remained same. I also replaced the batteries of my Microtek online ups with the same Exide batteries. The prob here though is that the original ones were 9AH and the Exide ones are only 7AH. Apparently 9AH are very hard to get as they or not moving stock. A slight decrease in backup time here. but no changes in behaviour. I had to set the configuration on the Microtek UPS to 7AH from 9AH so it shows accurate remaining time
 
rsaeon said:
Amaron's AGM/VRLA batteries have a 3 year warranty, but their FLA batteries have a 5 year warranty, which is what I used as a basis for battery life.
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The charging voltage/method is slightly different for AGM. If the UPS is using the same voltage as flooded, then it will damage the AGM and reduce its life

With all these limitations of lead acid, and the increased availability of LiFePo4, i wonder why we haven't switched yet. It will offer longer backup time and battery life
 
n1r0 said:
The charging voltage/method is slightly different for AGM. If the UPS is using the same voltage as flooded, then it will damage the AGM and reduce its life
Click to expand...

I remember now, yes — both of my inverters have a switch to choose between the type of battery connected.

I keep doing the cost calculations for LiFePO4 every few months but it always works out in Lead Acid's favour. For smaller batteries like under 10Ah, the difference is not as much. A 6Ah LiFePO4 pack costs about 1k more than a 9Ah SMF one and both have similar runtimes but different lifespans. But when you scale up to 100Ah or anything more than 12V, the differences are huge.

A 48V 280Ah LiFePO4 diy pack would cost 250k for just the cells and bms and you'd need to assemble it and test it yourself. While a Lead Acid system of 4x4 100Ah (48v 400Ah capacity or 320Ah usable) agm/vrla batteries would cost under 130k. So you could buy two sets of lead acid batteries (the second set after a few years) and depending on the use case, have them last just as long as the lithium pack (in terms of years, not cycles) while having the warranty of LA.

And when you factor in second hand batteries from failed startups (what a time to be alive), the price difference grows wider — 100Ah AGM/VRLA batteries usually sell for under 5k and carry most of the original warranty.

edit:

I found multiple anecdotal comments/posts about APC 'cooking' batteries as @lockhrt999 mentioned over on reddit. Starting with this recent post on r/homelab:

https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/16b9ox8

old APC units <2015 are rock solid
hell I still run APC units from the 90s

.

Didn't APC (Schneider Electric) use aluminium-wound transformers with unreliable terminations in a number of their lower-end models? Meanwhile all the older APC units cook their batteries and burn a ton of power in stand-by operation.

.

I have noticed more swollen batteries in APC units that others. I believe that is a sign of being over-charged.

.

APC has supposedly gotten to a point with their battery charge routines now where they tend to overcharge them and kill batteries quicker on purpose. I don’t have any hard data on that, but anecdotally, the APCs I’ve dealt with do seem to kill batteries much more quickly than the Eatons.

.

When my UPS batteries failed (APC UPS) they were hot like that.

.

I also have an APC SUA1500 for over 10 years with a battery change that serves my production rack at home. The majority of the time its load is 25% but spikes to 33% for short periods.

.

I've got an apc ups which is 20 years old or more, still works. I've replaced the batteries when necessary, of course, but it's still solid. I had another apc which lasted just long enough for the warranty to expire before it completely crapped out. Working with these things is akin to alchemy and necromancy mixed together; sometimes you can bring them back from the dead, and sometimes not so much.
Click to expand...

That post led to this one on r/techsupportgore

https://www.reddit.com/r/techsupportgore/comments/136cd49

and this one on /r/IndianGaming:

https://www.reddit.com/r/IndianGaming/comments/145pc9l

While this all could be some kind of bias with APC being more well known than the other brands, there is enough to raise concern.
 
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rsaeon said:
I found multiple anecdotal comments/posts about APC 'cooking' batteries as @lockhrt999 mentioned over on reddit
Click to expand...
Is this a widespread issue, or a few defective pieces? I've heard of the fan being constantly on until the faulty temperature sensor was replaced. So overcharging might be a defect?

-----

In other news, through a twist of fate, I find myself wanting to save ~170/month on electricity bill like OP.

Last month bill = ~85 bucks
This month = 2k because I crossed my free quota and have to pay not just for the excess units, but the total units consumed :confused:
 
I recently got hold of a power meter and some of the readings have surprised me.

I have a 2yr old microtek 1000VA UPS. With no load connected and powered off it still consumes around 14.7W. So that's around Rs. 900 of overhead per year.

I also have an APC Back UPS Pro 1000VA (atleast 8 yr old & two new batteries) that averages around 1.5 W in idle with no load connected and powered off. That's a mere Rs. 100 overhead per year.

Microtek UPS at present has a monitor(30W) and an nuc(mostly idles at 5-6W) connected. I cannot come to peace with the fact that to run a 36W setup I'm spending an additional ~15W on the UPS. That's really inefficient compared to APC.

Can battery age be a factor or should I just accept it as a quirk of Microtek devices ?
 
Okh. So i am looking for a used 2kva ups for my system which can also take external batteries. Which one should i look at and what price i am looking at. Would smf batteries be good with those or tubular batteries or lifepo4 ones, which would be good used.
 
pa1 said:
I have a 2yr old microtek 1000VA UPS. With no load connected and powered off it still consumes around 14.7W. So that's around Rs. 900 of overhead per year.

I also have an APC Back UPS Pro 1000VA (atleast 8 yr old & two new batteries) that averages around 1.5 W in idle with no load connected and powered off. That's a mere Rs. 100 overhead per year.

I cannot come to peace with the fact that to run a 36W setup I'm spending an additional ~15W on the UPS. That's really inefficient compared to APC.
Click to expand...

It might be the case that they're both different kind of UPS. The APC is a line-interactive ups, it'll only switch to battery if it's in-built voltage stabilizer cannot compensate for voltage fluctuations or in the case of a power outage.

It sounds like the Microtek is an online UPS. They're also called double conversion UPS, power is converted from AC to DC and then again DC to AC and there's a battery and charger in the DC portion. They consume a lot more power but you end up with the cleanest output and there's zero transfer time because it's always powered by DC, either the battery or the AC to DC conversion.

What's the model number of the Microtek UPS?

The other alternative explanation is that the Mikrotek is a poorly designed line interactive or even offline UPS.

rockyo27 said:
Okh. So i am looking for a used 2kva ups for my system which can also take external batteries. Which one should i look at and what price i am looking at. Would smf batteries be good with those or tubular batteries or lifepo4 ones, which would be good used.
Click to expand...

Tubular batteries have very long life, if you remember to add water as needed. I have one from 2017 that still has a lot of the original capacity, another member here has used one for 11 years.

I've only ever seen second hand tubular batteries on OLX.

SMF makes sense only if you don't want any maintenance and are ready to sacrifice life and capacity for not needing to do any maintenance.

SMF batteries are the easiest to find secondhand, resellers usually source them from startups failing and businesses closing down.

LiFePO4 is the the most expensive option but suited best for daily outages when it has a good BMS.

Some companies make smaller drop in replacements of LiFePO4 packs, robu.in and quartzcomponents.com sell them but it's important to remember they cannot handle a high load — as low as 70w for a 12V battery pack and double that for a 24V one. You'll need to check the discharge rating and cell configuration of the pack to be sure.
 
rsaeon said:
Tubular batteries have very long life, if you remember to add water as needed. I have one from 2017 that still has a lot of the original capacity, another member here has used one for 11 years.

I've only ever seen second hand tubular batteries on OLX.

SMF makes sense only if you don't want any maintenance and are ready to sacrifice life and capacity for not needing to do any maintenance.

SMF batteries are the easiest to find secondhand, resellers usually source them from startups failing and businesses closing down.

LiFePO4 is the the most expensive option but suited best for daily outages when it has a good BMS.

Some companies make smaller drop in replacements of LiFePO4 packs, robu.in and quartzcomponents.com sell them but it's important to remember they cannot handle a high load — as low as 70w for a 12V battery pack and double that for a 24V one. You'll need to check the discharge rating and cell configuration of the pack to be sure.
Click to expand...
My system maybe running high loads sometimes and idle sometimes. But i will definitely be needing something that can run high loads as i will be running my system for 24x7 work also after next one month or so and wattage will easily cross 700-800 watts.
So you're saying tubular battery will be better for 2kvs ups. Which ups wud be better as i will be looking for used ones for those also.
Are Lifepo4 that bad for 12v work. So smf wud be better for 12v ups as i was thinking of replacing in one of ups used for 4-5 mins of backup before genset kicks in and it runs my tv and routers.
 
Yeah, here's a 12v pack that's rated for 12Ah but the datasheet says max discharge current is 12A only:

quartzcomponents.com

WATTNINE® 12V 12Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) Battery Pack Battery with Warranty - Wattnine

This is a 12V Lithium battery pack, built using LiFePo4 32650 cells. The pack has an in-built protection circuit and uses high quality cells and design to provide long life and best performance. Datasheet / Specification Recommended Charger - Charging Time 14.6v 3A LiFePo4/LFP Charger -...
quartzcomponents.com quartzcomponents.com

12v x 12a = 144w max load

For higher load you need a much larger battery pack and those get very expensive.

Any UPS can be modified to take external batteries but only the ones with a builtin cooling fan are able to sustain long run times. Some APC models have the option of adding an external battery to their UPS, like 1500VA Back UPS Pro, but that is just a 865W UPS.

For higher capacity in a UPS, again it gets expensive. An inverter may be a better option. However, they may not switch fast enough. It's frustrating to balance between functionality and cost.

For us in India, on a budget, the best option appears to be a UPS connected to an Inverter. UPS will take care of the fast transfer times and inverter will provide the long back up.
 
rsaeon said:
For us in India, on a budget, the best option appears to be a UPS connected to an Inverter. UPS will take care of the fast transfer times and inverter will provide the long back up.
Click to expand...
So true, I found this myself a few months ago when I was searching for a backup/fluctuation solution for my PC.
However there are a couple things to keep in mind.
1) The inverter must be of higher load capacity than the power required for UPS and the PC on full load.
If that's not the case the inverter will trip as soon as power cut happens.
2) The UPS itself should be able to sustain the load of the connected appliance.

I have a question though... If I manage to hook up a fan or something to cool the UPS can I hook up a tubular battery to it to increase the capacity (say a small 80Ah one)? Will it be able to charge it?
 
enthusiast29 said:
Will it be able to charge it?
Click to expand...
Yes, but being designed for small batteries, the UPS will charge at a very slow rate.
You could hook up an external charger, but then you will have to disconnect it from the UPS, and when power goes, you won't have the capacity of the bigger battery
 
enthusiast29 said:
That's the doubt I had in mind but isn't that why we connected a fan to the UPS to cool things down and let it run for a longer time to charge high capacity batteries?
Click to expand...
UPS has two separate parts/circuits:
1. Battery charger
2. Inverter to convert DC to AC

The fan is for the inverter which is small and designed to run for a few minutes only. If you run it for longer, it will overheat.

If your smaller 9Ah batteries took 5 hours to charge completely, an 80Ah would take 44+ hours. This isn't a thermal issue, it's like using a slow USB charger instead of a fast charger for your phone.

The charging current is specified relative to battery capacity, for e.g 0.1C
For 9Ah, that will be 9 * 0.1 = 0.9A or 900mA
For 80Ah, it will be 80 * 0.1 = 8A
For 150Ah, it will be 150 * 0.1 = 15A
So you need a charger that matches the battery you're trying to charge.

Conversely, if you install small 9Ah batteries into a home inverter designed for big 150Ah+ batteries, the charger will still provide the designed 15A and the higher current will kill them.
 
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@n1r0 I understand your points, thanks.
I know it's practically a little foolish to attempt to do this and in reality it will take super long to charge the battery given that I provide enough cooling.
Also I wouldn't expect any power outages which are longer than 1-2 hours even once a month here in Delhi.
In fact I don't even remember when was the last time power cut was that long, they don't even happen here unless there's some fault.

I had to get a UPS just because of the very frequent voltage spikes which go upto 285V and sometimes 290V and our inverter then switches to battery due to over-voltage protection and due to this if PC is on full load trips as the inverter is not fast enough to switch.
Anyways, daisy chaining inverter and UPS works for me.
 
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