Not much info available to begin with, but discussion purely on tech, let alone the academics of it, without pivoting to petty politics?... Yeah, not happening, sir. So,
> I advocate people look at the whole system instead of just EVM's and see if they can find any loopholes. For ten years this discussion never moves beyond EVM's. Everybody trusts the rest of the system though
When people are discussing about EVM's they are not discussing about EVM h/w and s/w alone, they also might be considering other facets they does not fully trust. For eg.,
EC denies claims in Frontline's story, says it has no jurisdiction over State Election Commissions which also procure EVMs.
thewire.in
Background to this judicial probe asked for in May 2022 is a PIL filed in March 2018 based entirely from RTI requests that raised issues around the “processes involved in the procurement, storage and deployment of EVMs and VVPATs by the ECI and State Election Commissions (SECs)"
Story appears May 8 2019 in Frontline magazine. See the timing. Just in the middle of the last general election. ECI submitted a rejoinder the day after.
In a rejoinder sent to Frontline, the Election Commission said on May 9 that “there is no truth in the contention that RTI based Public Interest Petition in the Bombay High Court ‘points out that 20 lakh EVMs that the manufacturers affirm to have delivered are ‘missing’ from the possession of the Election Commission’.”
It claimed that the allegations of mismatches in the order and supplies thereof and the presumption that “the absence of proper system and infrastructure could lead to misplacement of EVMs along with misappropriation of funds” were “totally conjectural”.
The commission reiterated that “not a single EVM moves out of the designated warehouse without prior approval of the Commission and strict compliance to administrative protocols prescribed for movement of EVMs and VVPATs.”
Claiming to have a “robust EVM Management Software (EMS) through which the status of every EVM/VVPAT can be tracked on real time basis and only First-Level-Check cleared EVMs, properly logged in EMS, are used for poll purpose,” the commission said “this activity is done transparently with active participation of the political parties and contesting candidates”.
Course the authors of the article disagree they are wrong.
The Supreme Court on Friday dismissed two writ petitions: namely, apprehensions over 19 lakhs missing EVMs and another petition to use ballot paper to conduct elections while reposing its faith in the EVMs.
www.ndtv.com
Move over to Mar 2024.
The Supreme Court on Friday dismissed two writ petitions: namely, apprehensions over 19 lakhs missing EVMs and another petition to use ballot paper to conduct elections while reposing its faith in the EVMs.
Adjudicating the 19 lakh missing EVM petition, the top court called the apprehensions and allegations completely baseless, thereby closing the matter in favour of the Election Commission of India (ECI).
There you have it. Six years after the PIL was filed in Bombay, the SC dismissed the 19lakh missing EVM's case.
And denied a petition to use paper stating the apprehensions over EVM's as completely baseless. The matter rests there. Not happy? Search for the judgement on the SC's website and you will get the details behind their reasoning.
This is what I mean. The effort it takes to debunk stories like this is not trivial. But how corrosive otherwise it can be to confidence.
An ex-chief election commissioner says some machines being defective is routine, but 6.5 lakh is too high a number and is a “serious” matter. Experts have called for more transparency. The Election Commission is yet to respond to our queries.
thewire.in
"...An ex-chief election commissioner says some machines being defective is routine, but 6.5 lakh is too high a number and is a “serious” matter. Experts have called for more transparency. The Election Commission is yet to respond to our queries.
Transparency is the need of the hour: Experts
Experts have raised an alarm at the high number of defective machines and that too in a series. “Normally in an election, around 4000 EVMs are found to be defective. The corresponding number of VVPATS, which have higher chances of damage as these are electro mechanical devices, could be a maximum of 10 times that figure. But if what you are saying is correct that over 6.5 lakh are defective, then this is very serious,” says S.Y. Qureshi, former Chief Election Commissioner who was in office when the 2014 general elections were held.
See ? Transparency is the need of hour (nobody is even talking about paper ballot), experts and everyone else tend to agree with this. Some boomer unkills sitting in high positions of power can only lead to this much transparency, hence this discussion still happening even in May'24. Can force shut others opinions for sometime, but not forever.
An ex-chief election commissioner says some machines being defective is routine, but 6.5 lakh is too high a number and is a “serious” matter. Experts have called for more transparency. The Election Commission is yet to respond to our queries.
thewire.in
"...An ex-chief election commissioner says some machines being defective is routine, but 6.5 lakh is too high a number and is a “serious” matter. Experts have called for more transparency. The Election Commission is yet to respond to our queries.
However, ECI documents say 6.5 lakh VVPAT machines are ‘defective’ and being sent to the manufacturer for repairs.
thewire.in
representatives of political parties involved in the first level checking (FLC) or commissioning of the machines say, “Any defects are detected when the machine is first brought for an FLC or at the time when the candidate has been announced and the machine is commissioned. During the election process, if a machine is found to be defective, it is automatically weeded out. The machines kept in strongrooms are always those that have been cleared as functional.”
Good enough after those new ones were tested for functionality.
Unnamed officials at the ECI told PTI that the defective VVPATs mean they only stop functioning during the poll process. It does not give erroneous results, they told the news agency. The ECI said it could not check these machines earlier because of the COVID-19 pandemic.
See ? Transparency is the need of hour (nobody is even talking about paper ballot), experts and everyone else tend to agree with this. Some boomer unkills sitting in high positions of power can only lead to this much transparency, hence this discussion still happening even in May'24. Can force shut others opinions for sometime, but not forever.
Transparency in what? What is the need of the public to know what the error codes mean.
Whether people like it or not these machines should be seen as black boxes. Working or not working is all you care about. This simplifies deployment, maintenance and managing PR.
We have a working system here. Western countries seem unable to introduce electronic voting because of all the opposition there. So they stick with the old way not because it's better but because the opposition to change is too high.
Keep the posts coming. These real world issues are more pertinent and, what people will use to slam EVM's
Where is the proof that it hasn't happened in 20 years?
As you have trusted without proof variousliesthat were easily verifiable, your belief in this system should lower the confidence in the system. Lot more unsubstantiated stuff, but this is a sample.
I have written many things, which one do you want me to prove? I've given your track record of making unsubstantiated claims that can easily be verified to be lies.
Interesting that you are looking for proof from a bureaucratic system's flaws from within. You might consider reflecting instead of using comfortable ideas consistent with your world view like "hypotheticals" to dismiss reasonable statements. Almost no bureaucracy/government ever concedes that there are problems in the system. It simply appears that you have decided to trust the authorities and view all risks as hypotheticals. In my view, risk is the practice of mitigating probability of hypotheticals, because nations have to deal with many improbables over centuries.
The statement you made at least 10 times in different words in this thread , like the aforementioned "it hasn't happened in 20 years". Even when Chandigarh is mentioned. I don't see a proof yet.
On this topic, which of my statements do you want a proof of?
You might consider reflecting instead of using comfortable ideas consistent with your world view like "hypotheticals" to dismiss reasonable statements.
People with way more stakes in an election than anyone here put together aren't able to successfully challenge the results. That's the successful record you're up against.
It simply appears that you have decided to trust the authorities and view all risks as hypotheticals. In my view, risk is the practice of mitigating probability of hypotheticals, because nations have to deal with many improbable over centuries.
I do trust everything a government says until shown otherwise. Why not? They are accountable, have to abide by the law and will get caught sooner or later if they misbehave. It's a great time saving device which has come in handy since I've followed world affairs for over a decade.
I would request everyone to actually agree to disagree and not debate this further on this thread if possible, because it is so far from the intended discussion, and also unfortunately a lot of the discussion is turning into about defending ones' stance instead of the question which was about discussing technology risks to EVMs. I have said that for several times now, but well hopefully this is the last. I will unfollow this thread even if I am an OP
Hearing the case, the Supreme Court had said it would 'not allow democracy to be murdered'. Here's why the Chandigarh mayor poll, won by the BJP, ran into controversy.
indianexpress.com
What's interesting about this case is the fraud is seen to have occurred at the counting stage. Didn't I mention that earlier on. I didn't even know this case existed when I posted that
Like I said. Parties are free to bring challenges and we had a successful conclusion here.
I would request everyone to actually agree to disagree and not debate this further on this thread if possible, because it is so far from the intended discussion, and also unfortunately a lot of the discussion is turning into about defending ones' stance instead of the question which was about discussing technology risks to EVMs. I have said that for several times now, but well hopefully this is the last. I will unfollow this thread even if I am an OP
I prefer the discussion go on a case study basis. Which is much more relevant and what people will be familiar with. Than some theoretical musings. Complaints and how they were addressed. Covering the WHOLE system. This is the only way people see with theiown eyes how to trust the system.
The defense here is of the system in place. It's working. Why are people asking for changes then
You should have mentioned that. I wasn't even aware of this case since it's small and not exactly national news
What exactly happened there. They had a mayor election. Some irregularities occurred. They were challenged. SC weighed in and reversed the result.
What's interesting about this case is the fraud is seen to have occurred at the counting stage. Didn't I mention that earlier on. I didn't even know this case existed when I posted that
Like I said. Parties are free to bring challenges and we had a successful conclusion here.
I've demonstrated two cases where the system has worked.
Where is the question of not enough?
To turn around the result of some small mayoral election of blatant abuse within a month by the SC that has a case load going back who knows how long is very good. Isn't it.
I would request everyone to actually agree to disagree and not debate this further on this thread if possible, because it is so far from the intended discussion, and also unfortunately a lot of the discussion is turning into about defending ones' stance instead of the question which was about discussing technology risks to EVMs. I have said that for several times now, but well hopefully this is the last. I will unfollow this thread even if I am an OP