Major problems in India - Population related! What do you say?

[TEUser2K1]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

I don't think population is a liability, its is an asset if managed well. It is only that we haven't learned the art of managing our population efficiently.

By the way, this is only a proposal /report from Shri V. R. Krishna Iyer The living legend - Honorable Justice Shri. V.R. Krishna Iyer [Former Judge, Supreme Court] which unfortunately is not applicable in Kerala especially.

In Kerala, Overall population has increased by over 15L since the 2001 census, but the decadal growth has come down to 4.86% from 9.43%.

Kerala is a state which is going to suffer in European proportions for lack of population. Even now care homes for old people is a business there where old are left to die without their sons /daughters to take care of them.

In some communities, it is reported that only <25% people will be of career grade by 2025. In such communities even after assistance, people are not ready to go above 1 or 2 children max.

In northern Kerala, especially with largest communities there, this law may be applicable, otherwise Keralaites should view this report as an insult. May be all over India there is a relevence to this report.

Kerala's 2-child norm suggestion kicks up debate; More views galore | The Asian Age

 

[Sumit05]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

@op

Your title is misleading:annoyed:

 

[blr_p]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

Recently Kerala Government is mulling a law for punishing father of 3 or more kids as per Kerala Women’s Code Bill 2011 , so is father only responsible for a child

Obviously not, why isn't the woman also being targeted ? after all this is a joint-effort. Surely targetting both will have more impact.

Do you know what the reasons for this bill are ?

I believe, I have thought about it a lot, I see all problems in society, be it space, food, education etc all are related to increasing population.

Explain more

Do you realise that India (China too) have always had a large population. The main reason is because we've got fertile soil and can support such a large population. Historically, the main check on population was famines & disease. We have less famine nowadays and life spans are longer.

So how does one come to the conclusion that we have too much population. What is the correct amount of population to have ?

The biggest limitation right now is cost, it costs more to have a large family than in the past. If thats the case then society will automatically adjust over time without any legislation. And we can see this already in action, what was the avg family size 50 years ago ? compare that with what it is today. In my own family my parents had half as many kids as they had siblings, those kids have even fewer kids. So across 3 generations there is already a dramatic reduction. I'm sure this is a common trend across the country.

IINM mistaken trends are we will increase in population till about 2050 and then it will decline. More young ppl is good they are productive and add to the countries GDP, countries that do not have much young and social welfare have fewer productive ppl supporting more non-productive people ie Japan.

This kind of eugenics thinking was popular in the 70s, and got abused during the emergency, soon after we changed our way of thinking. Supported family planning and increased knowledge about family planning, contraception etc. There is no reason to have kids if one does not want to.

I DO NOT like the idea of the state intruding into the family space and dictating how many kids one should have and imposing penalties, that to me is moving in the direction of more state control and less individual freedom. No, the individual isn't subordinate to society.

 

[mehrotra.akash]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

Obviously not, why isn't the woman also being targeted ? after all this is a joint-effort. Surely targetting both will have more impact.

Do you know what the reasons for this bill are ?

Explain more

Do you realise that India (China too) have always had a large population. The main reason is because we've got fertile soil and can support such a large population. Historically, the main check on population was famines & disease. We have less famine nowadays and life spans are longer.

So how does one come to the conclusion that we have too much population. What is the correct amount of population to have ?

The biggest limitation right now is cost, it costs more to have a large family than in the past. If thats the case then society will automatically adjust over time without any legislation. And we can see this already in action, what was the avg family size 50 years ago ? compare that with what it is today. In my own family my parents had half as many kids as they had siblings, those kids have even fewer kids. So across 3 generations there is already a dramatic reduction. I'm sure this is a common trend across the country.

IINM mistaken trends are we will increase in population till about 2050 and then it will decline. More young ppl is good they are productive and add to the countries GDP, countries that do not have much young and social welfare have fewer productive ppl supporting more non-productive people ie Japan.

This kind of eugenics thinking was popular in the 70s, and got abused during the emergency, soon after we changed our way of thinking. Supported family planning and increased knowledge about family planning, contraception etc. There is no reason to have kids if one does not want to.

I DO NOT like the idea of the state intruding into the family space and dictating how many kids one should have and imposing penalties, that to me is moving in the direction of more state control and less individual freedom. No, the individual isn't subordinate to society.

Well, thats true IF the parents are paying for the children. But with RTE and improving mid day meal,etc schemes (I dont really know how effective they are), a lot of the expenses are being borne by others and not the parents themselves.

Also, we are in a country where the govt regulates the no. os SMS we send. no. of children is only 1-2 steps away!!

 

[Gannu]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

Instead of banning everyone from having children, link it to income.

Like, < Rs 5lpa : 1child
5lpa to 15 lpa: 2children
15+ : no limit

Or something like that.

The income should be determined on the basis of Income tax paid.
Will solve 2 problems in 1 go.
Also,give those eligible for children but not having children a tax rebate

No limit for folks above 15LPA? LOL!

Are you related to rite by any chance?

 

[uziel]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

If we go as per 2011 census data at India facts , Kerala has the lowest decadal growth rate so if it is happening in one state and its a part of the same nation where we have other high growth rates, we can replicate the good practices. I agree to some members view that more population can be used in a positive manner but majority of this population in India, AFAIK are users, not value creators. This may be partly due to no education/low level of education. What amazes me here is the mentality of people regards marriage. The moment you get married, all keeps asking about any sibling! So does the main purpose of marriage is manufacturing (! oops) Offspring! Why cant people marry otherwise. And if you dont produce child soon enough after marriage, some one of either the pair is declared incapable so the only option under pressure is to produce child .

 

[vahss_11]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

I am totally against ban of any kind on population control, the sole reason India is growing is due to its population base, China has got its population higher then India's , still its growing and growing at much better and stable pace, today, europe and america is mostly supported by China, now if you cut the strength of the country, which is its people then you wont have growth, who will buy stuffs if there is no people to buy?? for whom will you make products??? and who has given rights to any one to limit any number of population??

Just because people dont have solutions to problem, you want to reduce people so that you get easy way out??? its more lazy and inaction then anything else.

 

[mehrotra.akash]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

No limit for folks above 15LPA? LOL!

Are you related to rite by any chance?

Just an arbitrary figure!!

"rite"??

 

[vahss_11]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

No limit for folks above 15LPA? LOL!

Are you related to rite by any chance?

LOL,, please dont call rite to this thread. if he comes, then this thread wont end ever

 

[Lord Nemesis]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

almost all problems in Modern India is due to uncontrolled CORRUPTION

People are quite often under the mis-conception or self delusion that corruption is something that is to be associated with only politicians. In fact its the common man in our country that is corrupt. Corruption of Politician is just a more visible manifestation of the corruption of the common man. People talk about the corruption of 1000 politicians while ignoring the corruption of the more than 100 Crore population before which the corruption of the politicians would be minuscule. In fact it is the corruption of the common man that even enables the corruption of the politicians. So I think the higher the population, the higher the amount of corruption. But at the same time, less population does not necessarily imply less corruption.

Common Man = Corruption
More Population = More Corruption
Less Population != Less Corruption

Ultimately its the mindset of the people that controls both population and corruption.

When people of our country start thinking with maturity enough to realize that we have only so much land and even less resources to live on, there would be no need to pass laws to control population.

Similarly when people start manning up to their duties in a sincere manner instead of just demanding their rights and blaming the politicians for every thing, there would be no need to pass bills/laws to control corruption.

 

[uziel]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

I quite agree with Lord....corruption is not always related to money.... its the mindset.....if we deeply look in our lives, we will see corruption somewhere effects all the time, it could be as small a task as taking out money from ones dads pocket, to cheating in exam, to jumping red lights. The basic definition of corruption is The act of corrupting or of impairing integrity, virtue, or moral principle; the state of being corrupted or debased; loss of purity or integrity; depravity; wickedness; impurity; bribery. ...when our mind has corruption, according to the position we hold, this small corruption manifests at that level. Its very hard to uphold and say, sub corrupt hai, main nai hun, if i become PM, I will remove corruption! But one can try to make sure just to own one child or at the max 2, if we replace 2 by 2, population can stabalize.

 

[theoracle]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

Let's see if government implements Abhishek Bacchans idea by providing free 3G access
India Beejee with 3G so no abadi.

 

[TEUser2K1]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

Lord Nemesis made a very good point here. Corruption is not a fault solely from a politician. Others too have so much responsibility in it.

Anna Hazare movement though almost in right track tarnished politician's image heavily and easily let away the corporate and business class who rooted the scenes from behind. For e.g., if someone accuses PM /President of a country of corruption, there is something deeply problematic with the way that country itself is working out.

In many cases, politicians will be thrown away /horse traded for more powerful and corrupt ones by big industrialists.

By the way, regarding population we should take a lesson from old Europe and Japan. Their situation is going to be very grim in long run. Even if they are so called idealistic countries /societies, their problems are just starting to appear, when they appear those issues are going to be massive without any solution.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

So does the main purpose of marriage is manufacturing (! oops) Offspring!

I would put this as the main reason, ofc there is this other thing like legalising relationship blah blah

But one can try to make sure just to own one child or at the max 2, if we replace 2 by 2, population can stabalize.

You have yet to substantiate your reasons for this thinking ?

Why is 2 kids ok but not 3 ? What is correct size of population ?

What are you going to do if ppl do not listen. Fine them ? What if they are too poor to pay the fine in the first place.

All this does is create an extra bureaucracy over an already enormous one with even more loopholes to exploit.

Yeah, good job Mr.PM

 

[NinByChoice]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

You have yet to substantiate your reasons for this thinking ?

Why is 2 kids ok but not 3 ? What is correct size of population ?

What are you going to do if ppl do not listen. Fine them ? What if they are too poor to pay the fine in the first place.

Simple replacement policy. Every person gets to make 1 more person to replace them. So a couple gets to make 2 babies. Assuming life expectancy stabilises, population will stabilise too. What value does it stabilise at? - depends on other things.

Forceful sterilisation for people who dont understand this. Forceful sterilisation also for people that depend on govt. for even basic sustenance.

 

[TEUser2K1]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

What if someone is ready to bear his own expenses ?

Will not having more babies increase the scope for capitalism ? more cheap labour, more people to sell products for and so on ?

OK, if people reduce population, what guarantee Govt. can give them about their life quality ? OK, if everyone agrees to have only one child, can Govt. guarantee anything in general ? Why should one compromise one's life's stakes for the sake of country in a globalized world where identity and country boundary is soon told to be irrelevant ?

I do have lot of respect for Shri V. R. Krishna Iyer. However, this bill looks very one sided and odd as it is. He want to protect ladies and children and goes totally against men. As if ladies are not interested in having children at all, it's only a mans urge. If ladies have equal brains and mind as man, they should take equal responsibility too. The types of V. R. Krishna Iyer have this utopian thought that women is always right and no fault origins from them, may be its his age. As its is so may laws are there molly-coding women without any sense of reality creating disparities in society.

 

[uziel]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

If population stabilizes, in long run, resources will be enough to cater to population, government support will have to be minimalistic. They can surely give support in education and health. But the everyday issue that we face like long queues, overcrowding every where, be it IIT/medical entrance, Govt housing scheme, short supply, hoarding etc may see some respite.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

Simple replacement policy. Every person gets to make 1 more person to replace them. So a couple gets to make 2 babies. Assuming life expectancy stabilises, population will stabilise too.

So WHAT gives the govt the authority to impose this on the people ?

You can come up with any rationale, but in the end there has to be justification to actually go out there and do it.

So give the justification.

Forceful sterilisation for people who dont understand this. Forceful sterilisation also for people that depend on govt. for even basic sustenance.

And what about the ethical issues about sterilisation ?? the only exception i can see here is if the person is not within their senses ie they are mentally deficient in some capacity. Being merely poor is NOT a pretext to sterlise anybody.

Somebody says they must neuter you because, just because they know better. I mean a govt could use that rationale to clamp down on a lot of freedoms just because they claim to know better isn't it.

So i've yet to see any legitimate reasons offerred to impose penalties on those that opt to have more kids let alone sterilising them.

And wonder whether it would be a good idea for those that advocate such policy be neutered themselves as it seems they do not understand the larger issues involved

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

I do have lot of respect for Shri V. R. Krishna Iyer. However, this bill looks very one sided and odd as it is.

It would be good if we can see the actual text of this bill. What is title of this bill ?

 

[NinByChoice]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

So WHAT gives the govt the authority to impose this on the people ?

You can come up with any rationale, but in the end there has to be justification to actually go out there and do it.

My post was to help you understand why having 2 kids is ok, but 3 is not. Having >=3 kids leads to a perpetually increasing population. Are you sure you understand this? If not, please go back to primary school.

The Govt. has the authority to create and enforce laws, vested to it by the voting public. They also have a duty to improve the quality of life of its citizens. If uncontrolled growing population is a hindrance, the Govt. shall do whatever possible within the framework of the constitution to remedy the situation.

And what about the ethical issues about sterilisation ?? the only exception i can see here is if the person is not within their senses ie they are mentally deficient in some capacity. Being merely poor is NOT a pretext to sterlise anybody.

Did your parents check if they are not in that mentally deficient category?

There are no ethical issues. If the Govt. is free to kill its own citizens or hold them captive for years, I dont see this as a problem at all. Just to satisfy you, maybe the Govt. can put violators of the max. 2 child policy in solitary confinement instead. Make it a crime to have more than 2 kids/couple and jail violators.

Somebody says they must neuter you because, just because they know better. I mean a govt could use that rationale to clamp down on a lot of freedoms just because they claim to know better isn't it.

The Govt. already curbs many freedoms. This will probably be the most worthwhile though. Our constitution doesnt guarantee the right to make babies.

So i've yet to see any legitimate reasons offerred to impose penalties on those that opt to have more kids let alone sterilising them.

And wonder whether it would be a good idea for those that advocate such policy be neutered themselves as it seems they do not understand the larger issues involved

If you feel that India is under-populated, I dont have anything more to say. Stable and sustainable population is a good thing to have, and I dont think lost of states in India are heading in the right direction.

I dont plan to have more than 2 kids. If you want to pop one out every 10 months, have fun. Do check if you are not mentally retarded though

Govt. has road tax and driving license test for vehicles. No tax and parenting test for making babies. Maybe they should levy a congestion tax on couples with more than 2 babies.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Major problems in India - Polulation related! What do you say?

My post was to help you understand why having 2 kids is ok, but 3 is not. Having >=3 kids leads to a perpetually increasing population. Are you sure you understand this? If not, please go back to primary school.

Oh i got that

The Govt. has the authority to create and enforce laws, vested to it by the voting public. They also have a duty to improve the quality of life of its citizens. If uncontrolled growing population is a hindrance, the Govt. shall do whatever possible within the framework of the constitution to remedy the situation.

Show how its a hindrance. The case has never been made.

Did your parents check if they are not in that mentally deficient category?

There are no ethical issues. If the Govt. is free to kill its own citizens or hold them captive for years, I dont see this as a problem at all. Just to satisfy you, maybe the Govt. can put violators of the max. 2 child policy in solitary confinement instead. Make it a crime to have more than 2 kids/couple and jail violators.

You have got to be frickin kidding me. entering into a body and permanently, adversely affecting its function has no ethical issues ??

I do not support govt killing its own citizens except for self-defence or in times of emergency or war. I am an advocate for the abolition of the death penalty.

There is a HUGE difference between death penalty & holding captive.

Lol, if they make it a crime to have more than 2 kids they will have problems, nobody will ever vote for them. The religous fundies of all stripes will tell them to piss off. Let alone the civil liberties folk.

The Govt. already curbs many freedoms. This will probably be the most worthwhile though. Our constitution doesnt guarantee the right to make babies.

Govt does not curb many freedoms, it does so in states that have insurgency problems.

Again what is the basis for 'This will probably be the most worthwhile though' ?
most worthwile amongst what ?
what criteria are you using to define worthwhile ?

Think about it Raghu

If you feel that India is under-populated, I dont have anything more to say. Stable and sustainable population is a good thing to have, and I dont think lost of states in India are heading in the right direction.

I dont plan to have more than 2 kids. If you want to pop one out every 10 months, have fun. Do check if you are not mentally retarded though

Govt. has road tax and driving license test for vehicles. No tax and parenting test for making babies. Maybe they should levy a congestion tax on couples with more than 2 babies.

I neve said India was under-populated. I'm asking ppl who think its over-populated to explain the basis of that assertion.

How much is over-populated ? What is correct population. What is under-populated ?

How do you know the present population is unsustainable ?

Its not about how many kids you want its about how many kids SOMEBODY ELSE thinks you should have. WTF are they to tell anyone that.

Why is Govt intruding into personal life. What is the basis for govt to intrude into this aspect of personal life.

The basis has not been explained, it just gets asserted.

I wonder if there is way to show such is unconstitutional to begin with. That would settle this once and for all