Is the Canon G12 a good buy?

sydras

Skilled
Folks, I've been thinking of purchasing the newly released Canon G12.

I was initially thinking about purchasing m4/3 due to the larger sensors (I'd opened a thread about it some time back below)

http://www.techenclave.com/general-portables/panasonic-g1-a-good-buy-177536.html

but on reading more about m4/3, I've come to believe that m4/3 is probably not a good buy for the following reasons.

i> m4/3 seems to be in it's initial stage of development and adoption. All the lenses developed so far for m4/3 seem to be slow. It should probably not matter to me as I'm no enthusiast but I do not want to regret my purchase decision when better cameras and faster lenses are released later.

ii> m4/3 is expensive. After checking the pricing of m4/3 cameras online I wonder what the extra price is for. Given what is currently available in the market, existing m4/3 cameras aren't exactly compact in dimension when compared to compacts. In fact, many of them are still more SLR like. Add to that the fact that the lenses available are few and are slower than DSLR lenses. Add to that the cost of buying a costly adapter to fit DSLR lenses. Add to that the cost of buying an expensive optical viewfinder for some of the more compact m4/3 cameras without a viewfinder. Am I the only one not seeing the advantage here?

iii> There seems to be a lack of commitment in bringing m4/3 to India. As BF1983 pointed out in the previous thread, m4/3 lenses are not available. But I note that many of the good m4/3 cameras itself are not available here. I don't know if others have felt this but Panasonic is doing a horrible job of bringing and making their products available in India through authorized channels unlike Canon, Sony and even Nikon. They are exhorbitantly priced and the dealers have a don't-give-a-damn attitude. Given that many potential enhancements are possible for m4/3 in the near future, I would like to see more commitment from Panasonic and Olympus in providing both m4/3 cameras and lenses to India. Otherwise, folks will simply prefer to pick up entry level DSLRs it they can ignore the bulk, lack of live view and movie mode in entry level DSLRs.

iv> Unlike m4/3, the G12 probably represents the pinnacle in compact point and shoot camera development. I say this because of the following.

- It has a 1/1.7" sensor. Megapixels are capped at 10M thereby resulting in larger pixels and reduced noise at higher ISOs.

- It seems to have a very good viewfinder (show me a compact camera with an optical viewfinder with diopter adjustment).

- As compared to the LX3 or LX5, there is no lens cap i.e. the lens is covered when the power is switched off. Also, the flash is integrated and won't get in the way of one's hand unlike the popup on the LX3 or the LX5 (maybe Panasonic should reconsider placing the popup flash on top of the lens in their next iterations of the LX series).

- The LCD screen on the G12 can be folded inward for protection when not in use(unlike the useless up-down tilt mechanism that Sony LCDs have on some of their cameras that offer no such protection).

- The LCD screen size is 2.8" which is a step up from the 2.5" or 2.7" screens on offer in regular compacts and is of 460K resolution.

- The body seems to be very rugged.

- Most important for me(but maybe not for others), it finally...finally supports 3:2 aspect for images (along with the Canon S95) which means no cropping when I give images for 4X6 printing. Though it is larger than other compacts, it's still more pocketable than m4/3.

All in all, it seems like a camera which can serve me for years as I don't think I would need to replace this with another compact camera. It's very costly @ 31.5K I know but it seems like a worthy investment and I can wait for a while until prices drop and then pick it up.

As always, I look to the wisdom of the collective. Please let me know if my reasoning is correct or if I need to consider something else.
 
i considered this one but will probably go for the Nikon 7000 , all the advantages you mention above plus a 7x zoom instead of the 4x on the G12 for greater versatility. With the recent firmware update , the RAW shooting capabilities have been brought up to speed as well.

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And you're correct about Panasonic and Olympus. Couldn't find the dealers ANYWHERE ! I'm really interested in the Olympus XZ-1 but can't locate any dealers so will probably give up on that.
 
^^ So basically you decided that instead of a 31k camera you are suggesting a 89k camera ? :O

And the Olympus XZ-1 is not available as yet even on Amazon.com. Why are you looking for it here in India ?

@OP - If you are considering spending 31k for what is essentially a P&S camera then I urge you to reconsider and see if you can use a m43s or the Sony NEX-3. Sony has a 3 year warranty and so does Panasonic. If you were considering a cheaper camera I wouldnt have said anything but spending so much on a small sensor camera is not worth it IMO.
 
dhruvrock2000 said:
i considered this one but will probably go for the Nikon 7000 , all the advantages you mention above plus a 7x zoom instead of the 4x on the G12 for greater versatility. With the recent firmware update , the RAW shooting capabilities have been brought up to speed as well.

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

And you're correct about Panasonic and Olympus. Couldn't find the dealers ANYWHERE ! I'm really interested in the Olympus XZ-1 but can't locate any dealers so will probably give up on that.

I read up on the Nikon P7000 and it seems to be a significant evolution from the P5000 and the P6000. (Nikon point and shoots have generally not been up to the mark unlike their DSLRs. However, the P7000 does look promising.)

The G12 however seems to have better lineage i.e. it seems to have evolved completely :p within the G series with more enhancements to build upon with each iteration. (Though I would've really liked the lens to be as quick as the fast f2.0 lens of the S95 on the G12 also :cool2:.)

From what I've read at dpreview

Enthusiast Compact Camera Group Test (Q4 2010) Review: 18. Conclusions and ratings: Digital Photography Review

- the button lag when using the P7000 might be a cause for concern. But maybe a firmware update will fix this.

- You lose the articulation of the 2.8" screen on the G12 but then, you have a proper 3" screen.

- The viewfinder on the P7000 is reportedly poor. This matters to me the most. (What's the point of providing a poor viewfinder on an otherwise decent enthusiast compact?) It may be an issue for enthusiast photographers.

Personally, every one of the Nikon earlier P series cameras (I think it was P80...I don't exactly remember...had tried two of them at Croma) disappointed me. I did not like the feel of them not did I like the menu system.

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Stupid automerging...

@OP - If you are considering spending 31k for what is essentially a P&S camera then I urge you to reconsider and see if you can use a m43s or the Sony NEX-3. Sony has a 3 year warranty and so does Panasonic. If you were considering a cheaper camera I wouldnt have said anything but spending so much on a small sensor camera is not worth it IMO.

@BF1983

Yes, I am worried that the G12 is too highly priced for a compact especially in today's scenario.

However, I keep wondering what the future of NEX will be i.e. is the system hear to stay or will Sony have a re-think on the design of the NEX system (which seems that it could use some improvement)?

Will Sony release better lenses for the NEX system in the coming years? Will Sony release a bigger NEX camera (bigger body) that will make me regret spending so much on the NEX3 or NEX5 (I prefer a properly proportioned camera).

Also, the NEX cameras are not pocketable with the 18-55mm kit lens. I think that it works best with the pancake lens but I don't know if it's bundled along with the camera. Also, I don't like the ergonomics of the NEX the way the lens justs out of the camera body on the NEX. The 14-42 kit lens seems disproportionately larger as compared to the camera body. The viewfinder and alpha lens adapter both are ridiculously priced abroad and I don't think they would be available in India.

Tell me something, is the NEX3 available only with Pancake lens in India as an option? Also, I'm not very clear on fixed focal length lenses. Is the pancake lens a fixed focus lens? If so, how does that restrict one's usage of the camera?
 
89K ? I'm not talking about the D70 !!! I'm talking about the Nikon P7000 which goes for 28k or so...

I know the XZ-1 is not available anywhere yet... i was looking at the EP-1 the m4/3 camera by Olympus and couldn't locate any dealers for it here. "Not Online"

BF1983 said:
^^ So basically you decided that instead of a 31k camera you are suggesting a 89k camera ? :O

And the Olympus XZ-1 is not available as yet even on Amazon.com. Why are you looking for it here in India ?

@OP - If you are considering spending 31k for what is essentially a P&S camera then I urge you to reconsider and see if you can use a m43s or the Sony NEX-3. Sony has a 3 year warranty and so does Panasonic. If you were considering a cheaper camera I wouldnt have said anything but spending so much on a small sensor camera is not worth it IMO.
 
Well you are not alone many are in the same dilemma .

G12 and the Nikon P7000 is no doubt good cameras have amazing build quality.But these cameras aren't cheap i mean 31k for a g12 for that price you can get a NEX-3 which just blows them away in picture quality,speed,focusing.Due to the large sensor then give a shallow depth of field in videos just like movies.
You have the option of buying a telephoto lens in the future,with the cheap conversion adapters available you can plonk in a canon or nikon lenses or virtually any other make lens dating back to some 60 years ago.

As far as the NEX future ,Sony is trying to keep up with demand and in may places its on back order. In the recent interviews in CES by dpreview and imaging-resource. Sony is said to be launching a advanced version of the NEX in around September with more controls meant specifically for the advanced users (but it wont be cheap),they will also release another version in line with current NEX but with improvements, meant for people who just want no compromise in image quality camera but want it to be simple to use.

Further more Sony actively supports the use of third party lenses and is going to share the technical details with third party lens makers and adapters makers .So in the future you will see lenses from tamron,sigma and others with AF and aperture controls .If you don't mind using the manual controls there are plenty of adapters already out there .

The NEX-3 in india is currently bundled with a 18-55mm lens,in the grey market its available with 16mm pancake lens for around 27k to 28k but this was 2 months ago prior to the official launch may well be cheaper now.

The 16mm pancake lens is a fixed zoom lens,but its focus can be adjusted.

You also have the M4/3 cameras that are just as good as the APS-C size sony NEX and the samsung versions.But the M4/3 aren't marketed that much in india and isn't available in all places.Currently the NEX cameras alone are outselling the combined sales of m4/3 cameras in many markets.
 
^^ Ah I was also shocked with someone recommending the Nikon D7000 ! :p

The Olympus EPL-1 is available online through JJmehta.com with warranty if you are interested.

Olympus

@sydras - Sony is planning on launching a new NEX-4 in a short while which has a better grip but utilizes the same sensor as the existing NEX cameras. There is no chance as of this moment for them to discontinue the NEX as its the largest selling mirrorless camera beating out the Olympus and Panasonic cameras as of now. They have already mentioned coming up with many lenses including prime lenses at the end of this year. Technology will always develop but the current crop of m43s and NEX cameras are more than capable of taking good pictures. If you want the perfect camera you will have to wait forever. :)
 
@adder
Thanks a lot for the detailed information on the NEX status in India. I was looking for some details exactly as you've mentioned.

@BF1983
Thanks for the update. Hehe...you're right about waiting for the perfect device :p. I am definitely going to factor the NEX in my purchase decision. The G12 would've probably won me over a year ago. Now, it's not such an easy decision especially a price point of 31.5K (looks like I got carried away :p).
 
The adaptor has been launched E-mount Accessories : Interchangeable Lens Camera : Sony India its the same price as elsewhere in the world.But there are third party adapters that sell for like $50 to $60 which allows you to mount other lenses,you will however have to focus manually and preset the aperture(in lens that doesn't have a aperture ring).

If you want a viewfinder,then whats the point of having a small camera,might as well buy a DSLR or SLT.
If Sony happens to add a viewfinder into the NEX it would probably have a height of the SLT pictured in the middle
33069577.jpg
 
You guys are paying so much for a glorified P&S, why not just troll the classifieds at JJM or Fred Miranda.. there are a load of cheap SLR bodies out there, going at cut-rate prices. Makes more sense, IMO, esp. if it's a smaller SLR like the D40 or K-x.
 
There are a couple of problems i see with the NEX series

1. The camera has only 3 lenses right now an 18-55, a 16mm and an 18-200 and the extra lenses are expensive. Sony did say that you can use a mount to start using the other standard lenses made by Sony, but that would not provide you with image stabilization

2. The battery life is sad.. around 250-300 shots max

3. The minimum ISO starts from 200

4. Lack of accessories in terms of filters, cases etc..

In that price range you would be better off buying the Nikon D3100 DSLR with the standard kit lens if you want to get a DSLR..

If its a point and shoot that you are looking at then you can check out the Canon S95 as well which is for around 26k... :)
 
I dont know why the hoopla about the NEX series, it doesnt serve the purpose of the P&S and is an ergonomic failure for an enthusiast. Third party lens for the Sony alpha mount are catching upto Canikon but it will be a long time in India. Also wouldnt the adapters for the NEX series loose a couple of f-stops in the lens? And yeah manual focus is a pain, its hard to master and practically possible only if the subject is still.

Techhead has the perfect solution looking for cheap 2nd hand DSLR's, however if size is an issue go for a cheaper compact P&S. I am not sure on the P&S market at present but the old Canon IXIS series I had was pretty decent pics SOOC.

First be clear on your purpose of buying a camera, is it for a hobby or is for casual shooting? If its the former get a second hand DSLR and learn how to operate it (a Nikon D40/Canon 350D seems to be the choice) trust me more often then not its the ability which is a bottleneck and not the gear. Abhishek (ANP) has shot some brilliant pics with Nikon D40. But if your purpose is casual shooting and compact form factor, get a P&S inside 20k. I would not give a big importance to video, as its usage would be very limited.
 
Aces170 said:
I dont know why the hoopla about the NEX series, it doesnt serve the purpose of the P&S and is an ergonomic failure for an enthusiast. Third party lens for the Sony alpha mount are catching upto Canikon but it will be a long time in India. Also wouldnt the adapters for the NEX series loose a couple of f-stops in the lens? And yeah manual focus is a pain, its hard to master and practically possible only if the subject is still

Well the NEX is a step up for P&S upgraders,thats what sony markets it as(Roam like a tourist shoot like a pro) .
People who don't want to compromises on image quality and want it to be compact ,it sure can't fit in a pocket with a 18-55mm .But it can fit in a pocket with the wide 16mm lens it is.

Even with the 18-55 there is a significant difference in size vs a DSLR pictured below in the extreme right and SLT in the middle.
sonynex5vsslta333.jpg


In the video you can see it next to a DSLR and Sony slimmest P&S camera the T series

By adding a adapter the flange distance is exactly the same distance as a DSLR so if you put adapter meant for minolta/Sony A mount lens it will be 44.5mm ,so it will be just like a Sony DSLR/SLT .

The E-mount has a 18mm flange distance its lenses are designed specifically for that low distance.

If the NEX didn't serve any purpose then why is it outselling every other m4/3 cameras which by the way are increasing their share as well.These cameras fall in the categaory of ILC (interchangeable lens camera) in some places it has for the first time has outsold nikon in the ILC market so it definitely is serving some ones purpose.

For people who want good ergonomics ,who want to add a flash or filters then just get a DSLR or DSLT or panasonic GH and G series.
 
^^ Agree with you. EVIL cameras are already outselling DSLRs in the Japanese market. With more lenses on the EVIL cameras I would see them taking over the budget DSLR market completely.

IMO I would never pay more than 12 - 14k for a P&S. If I had the budget I would move to a m43s camera or a NEX camera if I wanted something small. If size was not a factor then I would think about a DSLR.

A P&S simply cannot compete with a NEX/m43s camera in dynamic range, ISO and AF speed.
 
TechHead said:
You guys are paying so much for a glorified P&S, why not just troll the classifieds at JJM or Fred Miranda.. there are a load of cheap SLR bodies out there, going at cut-rate prices. Makes more sense, IMO, esp. if it's a smaller SLR like the D40 or K-x.

Yes, the price is exorbitant but as far as meeting my expectations from a P&S are concerned, it ticks almost all boxes.

I've always toyed with the idea of going the DSLR way but whenever I do, I'm put off by the bulk, potential complexity of usage and that even after paying a hefty price, the entry level DSLRs don't have live view and a decent movie mode.

Also, I am least bothered about changing lenses unless there is some size reduction to gain (like in the case of the pancake m4/3 lenses). I'm certainly not keen on lugging an additional lens on my trips.

Also, I've seen that while vacationing with family, I really can't make the space for a DSLR. My family members will look at me like I'm crazy to carry around what will seem to them as an OLD :no: camera. It may sound silly but I understand things from their point of view also. It's so much easier to carry around a point and shoot and click those unplanned photos. With a DSLR, I would have literally plan to carry it around.

The only things I appreciate about DSLRs are the ruggedness of the cameras and the amazing picture quailty. Give me those in a point and shoot and I'm sold :D.
Aces170 said:
I dont know why the hoopla about the NEX series, it doesnt serve the purpose of the P&S and is an ergonomic failure for an enthusiast. Third party lens for the Sony alpha mount are catching upto Canikon but it will be a long time in India. Also wouldnt the adapters for the NEX series loose a couple of f-stops in the lens? And yeah manual focus is a pain, its hard to master and practically possible only if the subject is still.

Techhead has the perfect solution looking for cheap 2nd hand DSLR's, however if size is an issue go for a cheaper compact P&S. I am not sure on the P&S market at present but the old Canon IXIS series I had was pretty decent pics SOOC.

First be clear on your purpose of buying a camera, is it for a hobby or is for casual shooting? If its the former get a second hand DSLR and learn how to operate it (a Nikon D40/Canon 350D seems to be the choice) trust me more often then not its the ability which is a bottleneck and not the gear. Abhishek (ANP) has shot some brilliant pics with Nikon D40. But if your purpose is casual shooting and compact form factor, get a P&S inside 20k. I would not give a big importance to video, as its usage would be very limited.

Even I feel that the NEX in it's current form doesn't' have good ergonomics. I feel that the body is too small, the viewfinder is missing(an enthusiast camera without a viewfinder :huh:) and I especially hate the lens circumference jutting out of the camera body. But just like m4/3, I believe think that with a couple of iterations, the newer NEX cameras might have better bodies with better ergonomics and I'm hoping that m4/3 cameras will be better marketed in India.

To me, video is an important requirement. Having some video of your special occasions just brings life to the occasion. My interest in photography ends with family occasions and vacation trips. I'm not interested in 2nd hand so no D40 or similar cameras for me :).
 
If video is a require ment then NEX is better as lower jello effect then competition,video quality compared to m4/3 cameras ,DSLR(excluding panasonic GH-2) is generally better.

Once again if you want a viewfinder what do you think will be the size of the NEX and you might as well get a M4/3 camera like the panasonic GH series or a Sony SLT.

I agree that lugging a DSLR isn't practical for all(majority).A camera the size of NEX with a 18-55mm lens can still fit inside a woman hand bag,glove box of a car.
 
I would suggest you go and handle the nex3/5 in any shop. I have spent some time with it and its very very easy to use and great to shoot with. Some of the features are really very nice, like sweep panorama, hand held night shooting, HDR etc. A lot of the features are not found in any basic DSLR in the price range today. The body is very nicely built and solid. The lens selections leaves a lot to desire, but thats the case for any new system. But the way they are selling right now, I would not be surprised to see this change over the next year or two.

I also tried the S95, G12 and the Olympus Pen EPL 1. All three felt like they lacked some things as compared to the Nex. The new EPL 2 and XZ 1 is expected in the second week of Feb in India retail and I will make my decision after I use that for a bit.
 
@adder

A viewfinder really helps in taking steady shots. I've noticed that most of my photos with my old film camera have not come out blurred simply because the camera was held steady when I composed and shot those photos through the viewfinder. It may be of lesser concern nowadays with LCD composure and image stabilization but I still get blurred shots every now and then. I'm hoping that a viewfinder would help me in preventing blurry shots.

Also, I don't think that the NEX cameras would gain significantly in terms of size if they add a viewfinder. To me, it seems that the NEX cameras already have ultra-compact like dimensions which I don't like in the first place.
 
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