Apple M3 chip

rsaeon

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you do know that a lot of it relies on the silicon lottery? and the fact if your ssd stops working and your laptop is out of warranty you are screwed?

No one should be buying a laptop in this price range without AppleCare or some kind of reliable extended warranty. And if you are buying a 'Pro' model for 'Pro' needs then you really should have at least two off-device solutions for data backup. That said, I haven't been able to find any cases of hardware failures in the last two years related to bad storage. There was an early batch of M1 Macbook Airs that had logic board issues but it doesn't appear to have spread to other models or versions. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

For a depreciating personal asset like a computer or phone, I try and not spend more than 1 month's salary (so that it's easily replaceable) though it doesn't always work out that way. For work related purchases, there's more leeway.

If someone with no need for a MacBook Pro buys 8GB memory MBP just to show off that Apple logo at Starbucks, that is his/her choice.

And those people are the reason why 8GB models exist and are the best sellers by a huge margin. The 'Pro' market is infinitesimally small so there's no reason for Apple to cater to it as if it was their main market, this is all that I'm saying. I saw it happen first hand with the launch of the iPhone, Apple has never been the same ever since. The last specifications they ever talked about in a keynote was for the 2013 Mac Pro. Apple today is a lifestyle company because that's where they're getting their profits from.

Power users like us will never be prioritized, that's just how things are.

What this author did not factor in is the heavy amount of writes that happen to SSD when there is very little memory available for applications and OS. This brings down the life of SSD and the same is the case for memory.

I went to check my own drive, I downloaded DriveDx https://binaryfruit.com/drivedx and this is what I see:

Screen Shot 2023-11-11 at 6.37.28 PM.png

I find these numbers hard to believe, my M1 has been in use for almost two years and my workload hasn't increased gradually, it was the same since the first day. I switched to 5 monitors from 3 about a year ago and offloaded non-native apps only about a month ago.

98% health with 43TB written in two years feels low if it's caching to disk all the time. I don't have any other data point to compare against so I'd want to see how your drives are doing @desiibond @altair21
 

superczar

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98% health with 43TB written in two years feels low if it's caching to disk all the time. I don't have any other data point to compare against so I'd want to see how your drives are doing @desiibond @altair21
I have a 3 year old m1 air (with 8/256 launch purchase) and a year old 16 pro with 16gb ram
The former sits at about 6% SSD used despite really heavy use over a reasonably long period now- so i think I can comfortably say that the whole SSDgate hype was largely FUD.

The 16” 16GB model is 0% utilized so probably there is some truth to disk caching being leveraged on the 8GB models (else the 16” should also have been at maybe 2 or at least 1% used)
However it likely remains a theoretical debate because at this rate, the 8GB model should also comfortably last way longer than I (or anyone) would intend to use the laptop for.

IMO should the base models have come with 16.. sure.. and its a bit unfair that the air (and esp the base MBP ) come with 8Gb despite the price tag..
As some folks mentioned, they can get away with it because its still practically impossible to find another laptop with the kind of value proposition the base M1 offered ..

Would that impact a normal user buying a laptop for home usage - again, based on my experience with older base model.. No
 
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desiibond

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I have a 3 year old m1 air (launch purchase) and a year old 16 pro
The former sits at about 6% SSD used despite really heavy use - so i think I can comfortably say that the whole SSDgate hype was largely FUD.

The 16” 16GB model is 0% utilized so probably there is some truth to disk caching being leveraged on the 8GB models (else the 16” should also have been at maybe 2 or at least 1% used)
However it likely remains a theoretical debate because at this rate, the 8GB model should also comfortably last way longer than I (or anyone) would intend to use the laptop for.
Looks like you missed the point. That usage of SSD is when most basic stuff is performed. It is not FUD when performance crashes as the necessity of memory goes up. Look at recent M3 reviews, especially the ones with 8GB vs 16GB. It is becoming clear that Sonoma and M3 chips are more memory hungry compared to previous OS/chip and it is showing in reviews across the world. Respectfully, stop defending 8GB memory on a 2L rupee laptop. It just does not make any sense at all. Also, even for a home user, just because webpages loads is not a justification to say 8GB is enough. And I really do not understand why were are even talking about home use for a MacBook Pro. For home use, there are very very few who go for MacBook Pro (probably 1% of MBP owners use it for p**nhub alone) and majority basic users choice is that M1 MacBook Air that is available for 70k INR. I hate that one as well as it comes with puny 8GB memory and 256GB slow SSD. When Apple stopped tuning Mac for HDD speeds and concentrated on SSD, I had to replace HDD in my older Mac with SSD and the difference was immediately. The same will happen when Apple stops tuning OS to work well on 8GB memory. When that happens, unlike earlier, the only way is to buy a new Mac.
1699716069278.png


1699716044369.png


 
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superczar

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Looks like you missed the point. That usage of SSD is when most basic stuff is performed. It is not FUD when performance crashes as the necessity of memory goes up. Look at recent M3 reviews, especially the ones with 8GB vs 16GB. It is becoming clear that Sonoma and M3 chips are more memory hungry compared to previous OS/chip and it is showing in reviews across the world. Respectfully, stop defending 8GB memory on a 2L rupee laptop. It just does not make any sense at all.
When did you see me defending it?

I am not a power user (which i think these days means YT video editing)
But at any point in time, you will likely find 15 outlook windows, 7 power points, 10 word docs and 20 safari tabs open on my system.

What I am pointing out is that at no point have I felt that the 8GB base chip variant gets sluggish or slow as against the 16GB and Pro chip .
Is it being done via some kind of disk caching.. perhaps..
But as an end user, why do I care?

FWIW, my desktop has 32GB of RAM (just coz i could) - yet why is it that the paltry 8gig m1 still feels subjectively faster?

Having said that, I absolutely agree that at a minimum, any model with the pro moniker should have the 16GB setup as default - and at the cost of sounding repetitive, the only reason why they have been able to get away with it is the lack of viable alternatives..

is apple being an a$$ by putting 8gb as default, esp on the pro models - yes
Do enthusiasts start looking at specs more for the sake of specs than anything else - Also a yes
 
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desiibond

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When did you see me defending it?
Apologies if I misunderstood.
I am not a power user (which i think these days means YT video editing)
But at any point in time, you will likely find 15 outlook windows, 7 power points, 10 word docs and 20 safari tabs open on my system.
This is not Pro use case. My 8 year old MBP from office can easily do the same without slowing down at all. An M1 Air would easily do the same. There are windows equivalents that weight 700 grams that ace this use case. Try compiling code and running something like a kubenetes based platform for development use case or try ML runs or try video/audio editing tools and you will see. These are the use cases that are tailor made for Pro laptops.
What I am pointing out is that at no point have I felt that the 8GB base chip variant gets sluggish or slow as against the 16GB and Pro chip .
Is it being done via some kind of disk caching.. perhaps..
But as an end user, why do I care?
We should by completely ignoring those 8GB models causing inventory write off for Apple and its partners.
In Bangalore, we have to wait a week or two if we need specific model from the store as they only keep base models most of the time. We have purchase the customised model from Apple directly and I do not trust delivery partners.
FWIW, my desktop has 32GB of RAM (just coz i could) - yet why is it that the paltry 8gig m1 still feels subjectively faster?
There could be an issue/bottleneck in your desktop. My 5800x system with 32GB DDR4 RAM absolutely flies. It also has used Strix 3090 and you should see how it destroys my 16" M2 Pro MBP in every single productivity task.
Having said that, I absolutely agree that at a minimum, any model with the pro moniker should have the 16GB setup as default - and at the cost of sounding repetitive, the only reason why they have been able to get away with it is the lack of viable alternatives..

is apple being an a$$ by putting 8gb as default, esp on the pro models - yes
Do enthusiasts start looking at specs more for the sake of specs than anything else - Also a yes
Enthusiasts or those who need more memory have no choice. They spend more to get better specced MBP. I had to shell out more that what is worth for my current MBP and things are even worse now with M3 generation.
 

superczar

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Apologies if I misunderstood.

This is not Pro use case. My 8 year old MBP from office can easily do the same without slowing down at all. An M1 Air would easily do the same. There are windows equivalents that weight 700 grams that ace this use case. Try compiling code and running something like a kubenetes based platform for development use case or try ML runs or try video/audio editing tools and you will see. These are the use cases that are tailor made for Pro laptops.

We should by completely ignoring those 8GB models causing inventory write off for Apple and its partners.
In Bangalore, we have to wait a week or two if we need specific model from the store as they only keep base models most of the time. We have purchase the customised model from Apple directly and I do not trust delivery partners.

There could be an issue/bottleneck in your desktop. My 5800x system with 32GB DDR4 RAM absolutely flies. It also has used Strix 3090 and you should see how it destroys my 16" M2 Pro MBP in every single productivity task.

Enthusiasts or those who need more memory have no choice. They spend more to get better specced MBP. I had to shell out more that what is worth for my current MBP and things are even worse now with M3 generation.
The use cases you have listed (using the platform as a development or host) are what actually constitute pro cases.. And anyone choosing an air for that is effectively choosing the wrong horse for the course.

A 8GB air (i wont bother defending the 8gb pro moniker machine) is meant for someone who intends to use his/her laptop for the typical end user use cases - Read as email/ word processing/ spreadsheets/ photo management / browser and such.

Now let me leave aside my desktop for a second because its in any case an unusual comparison.
I do however have a 12th gen i7 with 16gb ram (dell latitude) that tends to stutter and struggle very noticeably against the base m1 air. FWIW, it costs a fair bit more we well.

Yet it is , more often than noticeably slower at times in normal undocked use and runs much hotter.
And god forbid if I decide to dock the machine with my desk setup. Just getting the desktop to re-render itself to the new resolution and scaling takes several seconds and maybe another minute before the system is back to usable.

Again, I am not justifying 8GB on a 1.5L or 2L machine .
Just pointing out that there is a lot more at play than just the RAM. I have seen folks opt for similar expensive thin & lights because they were way too hung up on the 8GB spec even though their regular user use case scenarios would have been much better served by the cheaper air
 
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altair21

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98% health with 43TB written in two years feels low if it's caching to disk all the time. I don't have any other data point to compare against so I'd want to see how your drives are doing @desiibond @altair21
I only have my work macs to compare against which is not a fair comparison at all, So can't really offer any data points,
No one should be buying a laptop in this price range without AppleCare or some kind of reliable extended warranty. And if you are buying a 'Pro' model for 'Pro' needs then you really should have at least two off-device solutions for data backup. That said, I haven't been able to find any cases of hardware failures in the last two years related to bad storage. There was an early batch of M1 Macbook Airs that had logic board issues but it doesn't appear to have spread to other models or versions. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.
so I should pay around 39K more for the privilege of apple allowing me to get it serviced where I'll have to pay a further 29.5K if my ssd craps the bed (I just checked the price of Apple Care +, this is not exactly a winning proposition to me.
FWIW, my desktop has 32GB of RAM (just coz i could) - yet why is it that the paltry 8gig m1 still feels subjectively faster?
OT but have you looked into debloating windows? I use one of these pre-compiled debloated ISOs for my usage and the difference is night and day. It's honestly really ridiculous just how much crap Microsoft manages to shove in it
Now let me leave aside my desktop for a second because its in any case an unusual comparison.
I do however have a 12th gen i7 with 16gb ram (dell latitude) that tends to stutter and struggle very noticeably against the base m1 air. FWIW, it costs a fair bit more we well.
ranking CPUs on their generation means **** all tbh, you have a 12700H, a laptop processor which easily tops all 10th gen processors and most of the 11th gen and a shitty U series processor in the same stroke.
 
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desiibond

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My fear from all this is PC makers doing same tricks to increase their profits and margins. Asus already started doing this with Zenbooks where they are soldering memory and SSD in some models though there is no architectural advantage.
 

altair21

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My fear from all this is PC makers doing same tricks to increase their profits and margins. Asus already started doing this with Zenbooks where they are soldering memory and SSD in some models though there is no architectural advantage.
zenbooks are a niche offering which doesn't even make sense for even the people who would use them for professional use cases, it doesnt really matter, and I know for sure if any brand started soldering ram/ssd in their workhorse/gaming series, people would revolt right there, and aside from Asus, the only premium laptop which I have seen with soldered memory is the legion slim 7i which still has an open ram slot and is one of the best laptops if you want portability as well as a GPU.
 
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Heisen

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According to apple on MBP M3 page under "How much memory is right for you?"

1699723686514.png

Seems okay IMO.

If I use the car analogy, taking ford mustang as an example, it comes in two engine variants,
  • 2.3L EcoBoost engine
  • 5.0L V8 Coyote
People might say why buy a mustang when you only gonna drive to work and back home which is 3km away or why would you buy a 2.3L ecoboost mustang as a grocery getter. You only drive at 60kmph at max.

When there is a lot of money involved, its very easy to lose yourself in "it doesn't make any sense" territory.

Experts might say there is no point buying a mustang in a puny 2.3L engine option, which is less the half the capacity of the other engine option.

When in reality the ecoboost version looks the same, offers almost all of the features of the 5.0 version. Fulfills ones basic requirement with a stance. Just makes less power.

But then people might say these requirements are so basic, that any basic car can fulfill this. Why buy a ford mustang at all?

According to this logic different tiers of luxury wouldn't exist.
 
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roadrash99

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Yeah I guess apple products especially in India are more for people who want feeling of having spent money on an apple product. And only apple is able to provide this.
 

superczar

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^ Framework laptop's time is coming.

Many of us grew up in an era where reusability/ expandibility of gadgets and such was a rather important parameter.
It no longer is.

Now I do like an expansion/upgrade potential as much as you do - but not at the cost of making compromises upfront.
Phones moved to fixed batteries many years ago.. enthusiasts moaned (i did too) but look at where we are now
 
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desiibond

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Many of us grew up in an era where reusability/ expandibility of gadgets and such was a rather important parameter.
It no longer is.

Now I do like an expansion/upgrade potential as much as you do - but not at the cost of making compromises upfront.
Phones moved to fixed batteries many years ago.. enthusiasts moaned (i did too) but look at where we are now
Yeah, I feel that Framework laptops are overpriced and right now, does not make much sense. It is cheaper to buy a new laptop with new tech 2-3 years later.
zenbooks are a niche offering which doesn't even make sense for even the people who would use them for professional use cases, it doesnt really matter, and I know for sure if any brand started soldering ram/ssd in their workhorse/gaming series, people would revolt right there, and aside from Asus, the only premium laptop which I have seen with soldered memory is the legion slim 7i which still has an open ram slot and is one of the best laptops if you want portability as well as a GPU.
It all takes one or two brands trying this out for other brands to follow. Lets hope this does not happen.
Does anyone use MX Master 3 with their Apple Silicon MacBooks ? Any issues ?
……

Also: https://www.macworld.com/article/2130071/m3-macbook-pro-8gb-memory-too-little.html
I have 3S, no issues for me.
 
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rsaeon

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There's a lot more factors at play here but you need to look past the pitchforks over Apple not putting $10 of memory in a 200k product.

First of all, PC manufacturers are not going to follow this trend — it's an Apple specific issue, by their market size and higher price point and other factors. The moment Dell does this, HP takes their market share. And so on. Apple had non-upgradeable memory and storage for a decade now and no one followed through. The opposite happened, Dell invented an entirely new standard for upgradable memory that's now been accepted by JEDEC as an industry standard (CAMM).

Apple becomes hyper focussed on issues that effect their higher end customer base more than any other company. The iPhone never had upgradeable storage or removable batteries — do you honestly think, for the one of the richest companies in the world, that this was a cost saving decision? I believe it was a security related decision. Same with non upgradeable storage and memory in their computers.

Twenty years ago, people were super cooling ram modules on a laptop that was in sleep mode, transplanting them into another computer and were able to access the data inside those modules. And these weren't elite hackers or three letter government agencies, they were university students. You can only assume this capability still exists with more refined techniques but just isn't talked about. Like it or not, but non-upgradeable memory completely breaks this attack vector.

It's a similar story with storage, by removing the storage controller and interfacing directly with the nand chips, there's no way to access the encrypted data on there since the decryption happens on the SoC. People have tried and failed, swapping out storage modules in Apple Silicon macs.

Now you may scoff and laugh at this theory but we aren't the target audience for these computers. We are just people who happen to be able to afford it so Apple sells it to us. These are the same computers used by world leaders, industry professionals, diplomats — and those people buy a lot more of these computers than any software developer in India (maybe this is changing).

I believe there's also another reason for custom SKU's for anything over the 8GB minimum, it forces the product to be shipped directly from Apple to you — taking out any middleman and middleman related interceptions/attacks.

I have a story about this:

Some years ago, I witnessed an incident where a colleague of mine purchased a used Macbook Pro from Amazon US to have shipped to a country east of India. Tracking showed that the laptop spent two weeks "in transit" stuck at a country whose name I won't mention. Once the laptop arrived, this colleague was not allowed to keep the laptop or use the laptop because it was no longer considered secure by our organization's security guidelines — it had to be disposed of. Several months later, we read news about EFI rootkits that were specifically targeting Apple computers and the laptop he had purchased were among the affected models. Up until then, no one even knew that EFI rootkit was a thing.

Non-removable storage makes this much more difficult to execute. Encrypted storage without a controller or protocol basically makes it practically impossible for hardware to become an interception/attack vector.

It's easy to take things at face value and assume Apple is being intentionally malicious or incompetent or greedy or short-sighted — but for a company of that size and that much money, that explanation does not make sense in any way. We just have to accept that these decisions do not make sense to us because we who want these features are not the target demographic, we are just people who are able to afford it.

From this perspective, it becomes clear that Apple prioritizes the security needs of a specific customer base over everyone else. It's probably why we'll never see upgradeable storage or memory on any Apple computer ever — we might be able to add additional storage in some cases like the Mac Pro or perhaps even a future Macbook Pro, but the in-built storage will not be replaceable, even if they become modular.

The former sits at about 6% SSD used despite really heavy use over a reasonably long period now- so i think I can comfortably say that the whole SSDgate hype was largely FUD.

Thanks for this, I thought I wasn't pushing my M1 hard enough — but if 6% after 3 years on an 8GB is what you're seeing then my use case with a 16GB at 2% after two years probably means I'm punishing this machine.

I really do want more compute though, hopefully in a year or so I'll upgrade. My M1 purchase was done after a year after release and most of my computing purchases have been similarly staggered, I never purchase a first gen product and I always buy either a year old product or last-gen. The last time I bought the latest and greatest was with a 500MHz Pentium III in 1999 and I never made that mistake ever again (we had 1GHz processors eight months later).
 

roadrash99

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Twenty years ago, people were super cooling ram modules on a laptop that was in sleep mode, transplanting them into another computer and were able to access the data inside those modules. And these weren't elite hackers or three letter government agencies, they were university students. You can only assume this capability still exists with more refined techniques but just isn't talked about. Like it or not, but non-upgradeable memory completely breaks this attack vector.
Don't think this is relevant in this context, if someone has physical access to your laptop, having soldered or non-soldered RAM/storage is the least of your worries. Most people don't want the security that CIA agents want. It all really boils down to control, Apple is able to exercise this level of control over their products because they have a huge captive market. For most of their customers, Apple is effectively the only option.
 
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altair21

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It all takes one or two brands trying this out for other brands to follow. Lets hope this does not happen.
Not in gaming/workhorse laptops for sure, People are pedantic af in this community including me, and we will happily boycott a series if any company pulls bullshit like this with us.
Some years ago, I witnessed an incident where a colleague of mine purchased a used Macbook Pro from Amazon US to have shipped to a country east of India. Tracking showed that the laptop spent two weeks "in transit" stuck at a country whose name I won't mention. Once the laptop arrived, this colleague was not allowed to keep the laptop or use the laptop because it was no longer considered secure by our organization's security guidelines — it had to be disposed of. Several months later, we read news about EFI rootkits that were specifically targeting Apple computers and the laptop he had purchased were among the affected models. Up until then, no one even knew that EFI rootkit was a thing.

Non-removable storage makes this much more difficult to execute. Encrypted storage without a controller or protocol basically makes it practically impossible for hardware to become an interception/attack vector.
you know what else is much much easier to do without screwing over the consumers? swapping over the SSDs and shucking them when you are disposing the old laptops (which is pretty much what sysadmins in any org do), I'm not even sure why are you and others even defending Apple's bullshit pricing and snorting a bunch of copium just to defend them.

And IDK which org your friend worked in but pretty much all the big orgs I have worked in, we get a custom order of laptops be it macs or anything straight from the OEM, we are not allowed to use any device not issued by our orgs to connect to anything org specific.
Non-removable storage makes this much more difficult to execute. Encrypted storage without a controller or protocol basically makes it practically impossible for hardware to become an interception/attack vector.
BTW, can you share any sources for this? first time I have heard of this and would like to read up on it. Also, you do know that EFI and storage are two very different things right? an UEFI/EFI rootkit doesnt need access to the storage for it work. Here's a pretty good (though old) article which goes a bit into detail about it.
 
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desiibond

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^^^ Even I am wondering how soldering SSD and memory will prevent EFI hack. EFI and SSD are different modules. And there are many tutorials on YT on how to swap SSD on Mx Macs.

If I use the car analogy, taking ford mustang as an example, it comes in two engine variants,
  • 2.3L EcoBoost engine
  • 5.0L V8 Coyote
People might say why buy a mustang when you only gonna drive to work and back home which is 3km away or why would you buy a 2.3L ecoboost mustang as a grocery getter. You only drive at 60kmph at max.

When there is a lot of money involved, its very easy to lose yourself in "it doesn't make any sense" territory.

Experts might say there is no point buying a mustang in a puny 2.3L engine option, which is less the half the capacity of the other engine option.

When in reality the ecoboost version looks the same, offers almost all of the features of the 5.0 version. Fulfills ones basic requirement with a stance. Just makes less power.

But then people might say these requirements are so basic, that any basic car can fulfill this. Why buy a ford mustang at all?

According to this logic different tiers of luxury wouldn't exist.
I am not sure what you are referring to here. If you want to pick a car analogy, this is more like putting a 10-litre fuel tank in a Mustang for the base model and removing the option to upgrade the tank to a larger one. Then Ford says, for every 10-litre capacity increase for the fuel tank, I pay 500$ extra. Yes, the car will run if you go slow in eco mode and you have to refill many times but it defeats the purpose of having a Mustang. Those who use it to go to the end of their street to showoff to neighbours will not be affected but those who really use it the way it is meant to be will be affected big time.
I am saying this again. I do not give a damn about showoff people who buy MBP to show the Apple logo in Starbucks. I am talking about those who genuinely need MBP for pro work and we are getting affected big time due to this shitty practice. Those who want to show off will be happy with even a gigabyte of memory as long as the laptop turns on and typing on keyboard prints something on the display.

PS: I hope Ford management does not see this and get vague ideas.
 
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