Graphic Cards Sparkle GTS 250 unstable

nj_gamer

nj_gamer

Adept
Hi All,

I recently purchased a sparkle GTS 250 Card, and i noticed the system is really unstable. I installed the latest drivers to make sure it wasn't a driver issue. I noticed a lot of artifacts while gaming, and the system freezing. I concluded it could be because of the following reasons:

1) the CM extreme power Duo 600W, isn't providing enough power, i feel this way is because when i ran Furmark to check the stability, my APC UPS gave a loud beep, and the indicator turned red... I guess the system tried to pull in more power. If i need a new PSU, sould i go for the Corsair VX 450? will it be enough? or if there are others, please suggest one.

2) the system is really hot. this is because the graphic card is placed down, and there is no proper ventilation for it. I have a Fan running in the front of the syatem and at the back of the system, which provides good ventilation to the top layers, its just that the GPU isn't getting ventilation, so i have to open the side cover whenever i use the system(temporary solution). What do i do to somehow cool the lower part of the system?

Is there any way to change the direction of the fan? because both the fans are pulling In air and the PSU's fan is pushing out the air... i wan the back fan to push out the air.

This is my system config:

Core 2 Duo E4300(1.8GHz) overclcked to 3.0GHz
2GB Kingston RAM @ stock speed
512 MB GTS 250
2 HDDs
1 DVD writer
USB mouse
USB Web Cam
Sometimes i use an an external portable HDD.

I guess the PSU isn't powerful enough.

I'd like some suggestions to solve this problem.Also if i do decide to sell the CM PSU, how much would i get for it? its more than 3 years old..

Regards,
Nj
 
Yeah the VX 450W should be able to handle the GTS 250 with no problems, as for the PC I think the artifacting can be due to the high OC you have done on your system, are you still using stock cooler, if Yes please change it ASAP to the Hyper 212+ atleast.

As s for the air flow, take a screw driver and rear fan to throw the air out instead of in, should be easy enough hope this helps :)

Building Your Own PC, Part 1: Know-How for Do-It-Yourselfers : Building A PC System

Building Your Own Computer (DIY) Guide - Starting The Computer Build - Legit Reviews these links should throw more light
 
I've been running @ 3.0GHZ using the stock cooler since 3 yrs, without any problems, could it be because of the extra power that is drawn? i keep monitoring the CPU temperatures, and its within the recommended range. Do i still need the hyper 212+?

Also i didn't get you on using the screw driver and the rear fan part... I fixed it myself, can you elaborate on it?

So i'll go ahead and buy the Corsair VX 450?

Regards
 
nj_gamer said:
I've been running @ 3.0GHZ using the stock cooler since 3 yrs, without any problems, could it be because of the extra power that is drawn? i keep monitoring the CPU temperatures, and its within the recommended range. Do i still need the hyper 212+?

Also i didn't get you on using the screw driver and the rear fan part... I fixed it myself, can you elaborate on it?

So i'll go ahead and buy the Corsair VX 450?

Regards
Click to expand...
If you have been using the machine overclocked since 3 years and temps are normal at load then you may not need a new heat sink. But then again it depends on what normal is. What temperatures do you get at load? Did you try running prime95 or some such stress test? If yes what temps do you get while running prime95?

Also what is the max GPU temp under furmark? You GPU may also be overheating because of poor ventilation.

What ALPHA17 meant was to reverse the airflow direction of your rear fan. The rear fan should be blowing air out of the case (exhaust fan) for optimal cooling and not into the case( and hence directly at the CPU heat sink). My friend's machine (with athlon64 x2) was crashing after ~30 min of use. We found that while priming the CPU temps reach extreme temps and the system locks up. The culprit is the rear fan blowing air into the case directly at the CPU heatsink. I just asked him to reverse the direction of the fan and the machine is stable after that even while priming. First thing you should try is to make sure that the rear fan is exhausting air. For all you know this may be your problem.

The CM extreme power series of PSUs have bad reputation. I am not sure if your PSU (CM eXtreme Duo 600W) is from the same series. If it is a similar unit it is recommended that you upgrade to vx450 or better anyway.
 
viki said:
What ALPHA17 meant was to reverse the airflow direction of your rear fan. The rear fan should be blowing air out of the case (exhaust fan) for optimal cooling and not into the case( and hence directly at the CPU heat sink). My friend's machine (with athlon64 x2) was crashing after ~30 min of use. We found that while priming the CPU temps reach extreme temps and the system locks up. The culprit is the rear fan blowing air into the case directly at the CPU heatsink. I just asked him to reverse the direction of the fan and the machine is stable after that even while priming. First thing you should try is to make sure that the rear fan is exhausting air. For all you know this may be your problem.
Click to expand...
Well, the fan does pull in air to the system, are you telling me to just reverse the Fan? i.e., just turn it and screw it up to the machine? Will that do?

Also i had done the overclock tests using Prime95 and OCCT around 3 yrs back and it was stable. i haven't touched the settings after that, probably the components have worn out a bit(Is it possible?)

And yeah my PSU has a bad reputation now, but everyone had suggested it when i was buying the system 3 yrs back... Anyhow I'll change the direction if the fan and lets see...

Thing with FurMark is i can see the temperature increasing till 105 deg Celsius withing 10 seconds, then there is a loud beep from my UPS and the screen goes blank, but i can see the program showing running, but at the top, the rest of the screen is blank... i also ran the Video Card stability test (Video Card Stability Test - Stress Testing & Benchmark the speed of your 3D graphics video card) but it ran for one min, and showed unstable.... My Gut feeling is with the power supply and then the ventilation...

Regards,

Nj
 
Yes, simply fix the fan in the reverse direction so that it exhausts air out of the case. Try running furmark after that and see if you hit 105 degrees on GPU.

105 degress on the GPU is very high. This is the threshold at which the GPU shuts itself down to prevent permanent damage. It is most probably a GPU heating issue than anything else. It may be poor thermal paste application, improper contact between GPU and the heatsink or fan not working properly. It may be a mix of these problems also. While running furmark does the fan spin at its max speed? You can check this by using GPU-z or some tool which reports GPU fan speed.

The beep from the UPS indicates that it is supplying power near to/greater than its max rated output. Which UPS are you using? What is the max load that it can take? Furmark puts a lot of stress on the GPU and pushes it to draw close to its max rated wattage. Which is the reason why your PSU is drawing more power, which is close to the max load you UPS can take. UPS beeping doesn't indicate that your PSU is bad.
 
I'm using an APC UPS. I guess i should check the GPU's fan, but i did notice there is no ventilation on the bottom part of the cabinet other than having some ventilation on the side through some holes... also i noticed the GPU's fan pulls in air, so its pulling in the hot air...
 
nj_gamer said:
I'm using an APC UPS. I guess i should check the GPU's fan, but i did notice there is no ventilation on the bottom part of the cabinet other than having some ventilation on the side through some holes... also i noticed the GPU's fan pulls in air, so its pulling in the hot air...
Click to expand...
It may be pulling in hot air because of the case fan config. It may also be GPU fan speed related. May be its not running at full speed on load. Use GPU-z to check speed while running furmark. Some nvidia driver releases had fan speed problems on some cards.

My friend runs a 9600GT in a Micro-ATX case (Dell inspiron desktop) with similar holes at the bottom near GPU. His GPU runs fine. Max temp he gets under furmark is 86 degrees.
 
i noticed using speed fan that the GPU fan runs at 100% on load, anyhow i'll run GPU-Z too... thing is Furmark gives a black screen after few seconds, on touching 10 degrees.... I'll check it out once home, and update this thread...
 
Here's how your fans should be setup:

1. Front fans - pulling air into the case, they will also cool your HDDs

2. Rear fans - exhausting air out of the case. Most cpu cooler fans blow air on to the heatsink. This hot air coming off the heatsink needs to be exhausted out of the case. Also, since most PSUs exhaust air out the back of the case, if the rear fan is an intake, it will just blow this hot air back inside!

3. Side fans - pulling air into the case. These help supply fresh air to the cpu and gpu. The coolest air coming into a case, imo.

4. Top fans - exhausting air, hot air rises.

5. Bottom fans - intake, see #4

There should also be a balance between intake and exhaust. A little leeway is acceptable, but there shouldn't be like 5 fans exhausting and 2 intake. You will have to calculate cfm figures of each fan, then add all the intake and exhaust to make sure you're within range.
 
Well, i reversed the fan, and i played a bit of CoD MW2, with everything maxed out just to check, and after 2-3 minutes, i get artifacts :(. So i shut down the game and ran 3 GPU stability tests from OCCT, FurMark and video Card Stability tester. when i ran OCCT, the UPS started beeping after a few seconds, so i cancelled the test, FurMark too gives a white/black screen after 3-4 seconds, and the last tool reported an artifact within 20 seconds...

What could be the reason for the artifacts?I read on some forums its due to overheating, overclocking or a bad VRAM(which i doubt). I haven't overclocked my GPU although i had overclocked my processor to 3.0 GHz, but i reduced it to 2.7GHz(50% overclock) but the rest of the components are as it is...

I'm really lost here, i donno if it is because of my PSU, and i dont want to buy another PSU until i am absolutely sure that it will solve the problem.

Regards,
nj
 
Have you tested the system at stock speeds? You have read that heat and overclocking are an issue, there's not much point in stating the obvious.

It is a combination of the heat and your power supply's capabilities being exceeded by the load. You have to take care of both, first by sorting out the overall thermal footprint and airflow within your case, and then upgrading a power supply that is not Extreme-ly bad. Your current one will probably be fine at stock CPU speeds, the additional 30 watts of power and heat are akin to the straw breaking the camel's back. Except the fact that PSU is a sloth, not a camel. At 300W output (which is what I estimate your load to be) it would be drawing close to 600W from the wall, which is its maximum rating.

You have to compromise. You can either have stock clocks and stable operation, better cooling and a mild overclock (kind of pointless unless 2fps means something to you) or excellent cooling, stable power and stable operation at high clocks.

You haven't mentioned which UPS you're using. APC makes hundreds of different types of UPS models.

Neither have you mentioned which cabinet you have, and what the fan sizes are. You have actually not given any details of the cooling system that are useful. 2 x 120mm fans have a very different implication on cooling than 2 x 80mm fans, and then within a particular fan size there are balances between airflow, noise and cost.

I would tend to think that you need both a power supply and a cabinet, plus a few good fans. Or, stop stressing the system so hard. Once you post stuff like this, no one will want to buy your hardware because clearly you're abusing it beyond the limits of safety and sanity.
 
Alright, I'll Give the config of my system, just to clear things out...

I have an APC BE500Y-IN UPs, and a Cooler Master 330 Elite (Elite 330 - Cooler Master) cabinet. So i Have a 120 mm Fan running at the rear(Pushes out air) and a 80 mm fan running in the front(pulls in air). The front fans keep the HDD really cool, and the rear fan keeps the proccy cool. It so happens that the above part of the cabby is well ventilated. Since the graphic card is Big, it kinda blocks the air supply by blocking the hot air that exits the card from exiting through the rear fan, and the GPU's fan pulls in the hot air again. So as a temporary solution and to test for overheating, i did remove the side panel and let the pc run. yet it was unstable.And yes it still overheats the card.

About running at stock speed, you are right, i've tried that too but the system is unstable even at stock(so it makes me believe it could be because it isn't getting enough power).

These are the reasons why i'm so confused abt the card. I donno if the card is faulty or the power isn't enough. I did read some revies on my PSU, and many say its not of good quality and it gives only 60%-70% of the power advertised. So i assume a Corsair VX 450 which is certified to give 80% power, reduces the amount of dirty power in the system.

Regards,
Nj
PS:I ain't stressing my Config.... i have only overclocked my proccy after running countless no of stability tests and making sure the temperature is within 65 degrees @100% load. I do love my comp and treat her well :)
 
Your UPS is screaming because the load is greater than it can support. The CM Extreme PSUs are very inefficient - for a draw of 300 watts they'll easily draw more than 500 watts from the wall.

Whoever told you they provide 60% power is speaking in tongues, because what they really mean is efficiency (which is the ratio of power consumption to power delivery).

If your monitor is also connected to the UPS, you are easily exceeding the capabilities of the UPS as well. It is not wired or configured for a load of greater than 350 watts in battery mode and 500 watts in mains mode. Connect your system directly to the wall.

The VX450 is over 80% efficient and can handle temporary peak loads in excess of 500 watts. Even so, this PSU will not spare your UPS any grief because at the same load of 300 watts and efficiency of 80%, you're still drawing about 375 watts. Add the 50 watt average for the monitor, and you're close to the UPS limits.

To summarise, you need to cool the system down and provide some clean power. Both the UPS and PSU may need to be looked at. The UPS should survive, just about, if you are careful. The Extreme needs to go, though it is probably not the only thing you need to do.

Now to airflow.

The 330 has a vent for a fan on the side panel. Have you tried populating that? You have to remove the chimney and fit an 80mm fan there.

Heat rises by convection, so the most efficient system will have inlets at the bottom and exhaust at the top. In addition, there is a depth to the case so we normally get air to move from the front to the back. In case of extreme depth we normally add inlets at the side. The Intel TAC design which is meant for mainstream computers adds one open vent for slots and one ducted intake for the CPU. In most TAC designs, the duct can be replaced with a fan.

In your case, the 80mm fan is not pushing enough air into the case, so you have to figure out a way to get fresh air into the case. For perspective, I have a 4870x2 and my cabinet has 4 fans on the side panel, within an inch of the GPU's fans. In peak summer (38 degrees outside) without airconditioning, I would still get shutdowns due to card overheat.

You should also try a more powerful rear fan instead of the stock Coolermaster fan, this is not a bad fan but it is biased towards silence and you need something that keeps things cool. The top rear fan is always used for exhaust. Since you connected it as an intake, it was simply heating up the top half - the elite series uses the front of the case as a large air intake so the back fan can actually do something useful.

Your thermal footprint is not consistent with the design intent of the case, you do need better cooling. If you don't want to (and I don't advise) change the case, get a better fan for the back and try and shoehorn a 120mm fan in the front, plus populate the side panel with fans. The combined exhaust capability of the PSU and the rear exhaust should work well enough in this kind of situation.

Good Luck. You may yet have a defective card, but there isn't a reliable way to tel unless you correct everything else around it first.
 
Hey nj_gamer, What is the GPU temp under stress(Furmark) now? Does it still reach 105 degrees? and what is the GPU fan speed at full load?

Post some pics of the insides of you case, GPU (specially the heatsink) if possible.

If your GPU still hits 105 degrees, it may be inadequate cooling from the GPU heatsink. May be the thermal paste is not properly applied and hence improper heat transfer from GPU to heatsink. For your GPU the temp at full load should max be around 90 degrees.

The best way to troubleshoot would be to isolate each component and find out the faulty one. I suggest that you test the GPU on a friends machine with a good power supply (like >= vx450) and case with good ventilation. Run furmark and check the max temp your GPU reaches.

Since you said your machine is stable before the GPU is added under all kinds of stress tests, it is most likely a faulty Graphic card or PSU not able to supply enough clean

power. Even if its a faulty GPU, it is recommended that you upgrade to vx450, after replacing the graphic card.

Your case is good enough for your configuration.

The UPS you have can take a max load of 300W. Like cranky said under stress, and monitor also connected to the UPS, your total power draw will easily exceed 300W. Even if you buy a vx450, you machine will easily draw more than 300W under stress tests along with the monitor. But under normal use you should be able to use the UPS, because stress testing puts unrealistic load on the components. Under normal usage you may be able to use the UPS.
 
The corsairs are pretty good psus. You could also look at running a 2nd PSU in parallel instead of replacing the existing one with one larger. I had posted here http://www.techenclave.com/graphic-cards/xfx-4850-1gb-gddr3-144749-5.html#post1240471 about how to go about it. Minor mods to the case are required. Most important factor is if the case has room for the 2nd psu. Either under the GFX card or maybe in the 5.25" bays. It's a little doubtful with your case. Your UPS is definitely not enough though. And most certainly won't take the load of 2 Psus.
 
@cranky

Thanks for your valuable solution, i'll implement it soon... I'll work on the cooling and the PSU. I somehow know the problem lies with the PSU.

@Julian

I don't think having a dual power supply is an option, but thanks for the innovative idea :)

@viki

I had bought the GFX card from a TE member, and it was ~20-25 days old, and when i spoke to him, he told the card was stable on his system.He has a Gigabyte Superb 260 W. So i am sure that the Card isn't an issue, i'll probably upgrage the PSU and improve on the cooling, i'll buy a couple of 120 MM fans, and hopefully it would solve the problem.

My question now is wheter the Vx 450 is good enough? or are ther other options
 
No bru go for the VX 450W it is a great SMS and great value for money, if you feel extremely doubtful then aim for the Corsair VX 550W, also yes get fans and improve your RIGS air flow characteristics, if you want any other similar options there are,

FSP Blue Storm II 500W

Cooler Master Real Power Pro 460W

Building Your Own PC, Part 1: Know-How for Do-It-Yourselfers : Building A PC System read this link to see how to go about your internals of the cabinet :), hope this helps and your RIG is up and running soon, till then Peace Be In Your Heart.
 
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