Where this country is heading - do you have any hope ?

[jith77]

Supreme court couldn't find anything wrong. Are they also getting their orders from the BJP. So come up with some real ammo.

There is no scope for corruption in a G to G deal. No middlemen see. Isn't this obvious. Not to the ignorant.

So Bofors scam never happened?

 

[Lord Nemesis]

So Bofors scam never happened?

Sure, Bofors scam is a realty just as much the Rafale scam is a realty. BJP is not the pinnacle of honesty that it trumpets itself to be and the problem is that BJP bhakts refuse to accept it and try to say its alright for BJP to indulge in corruption and crony capitalism.

The same news papers like "The Hindu" that reported investigative pieces on Bofors back then are reporting on Rafale now. But suddenly, its a anti-national/communist news paper for doing that. The bottom line is that for people who support BJP, it all boils down to discrimination. They are actually fine with BJP being corrupt, but not congress and there are people who literally told that its because its a nationalistic party and its fine if they eat the tax payers money. One of these guys argues that since its only Reliance and BJP benefiting from the scam, he is fine with the corruption unlike with congress. They are literally gate-keeping corruption. This guy evades taxes using every possible fake document every year and he is fine that other more honest tax payers money is getting diverted because of corruption like this.

This behavior is sort of like how in the US, a black college student would get locked away for 20-40 years on mere accusation of rape from a (white) class mate, without any concrete evidence produced in court, but a white college student despite having his crime proven gets does not get any punishment because the judge thinks that his "bright future" would be ruined if he gets jail time.

 

[6pack]

Supreme court couldn't find anything wrong. Are they also getting their orders from the BJP. So come up with some real ammo.

There is no scope for corruption in a G to G deal. No middlemen see. Isn't this obvious. Not to the ignorant.

If you read newspapers or online, you can see that the govt held back a lot of details in the court case to suit their narrative. Things like this defence secretary note were never put in front of the supreme court. The way the court handled it in haste shows something is wrong there too. possibly the judge got prejudiced in his judgement. he's a human after all and not a computer to make rational logical judgements. just because supreme court said nothing is wrong does not make it set in stone.

No middlemen? reliance is the middleman here. The original deal was with DRDO / HAL for more than a 100 jets to be bought and built here for a lower cost. After your "i can't do anything wrong" pm started meddling in it, the cost rose up threefold and now the deal is for 36 jets and less than a 100 jets to built here at Reliance factories who have no prior knowledge of building even an airplane leave alone jets. your pm is playing with the countries defense preparedness just to fill his friends bank balances. how ignorant do you bjp people have to be to see that? calling other people ignorant is crazy when you people cant see something as plain as this in front of your eyes.

 

[adventureguy]

The idea is they will do just that once they prove their worth. Same with another thirty other companies. This is about building a private domestic weapons industry. When are we supposed to start doing that otherwise or do we keep importing everything in perpetuity.

If this is the stated goal post now, why was the transfer of technology from Dasault to HAL( now Reliance) removed? Wouldn't that be a perfect boost to "Make in India" program?

transfer of technology cost was one of the reason why the deal was so delayed because dasualt kept on dragging feet

 

[blr_p]

So Bofors scam never happened?

Can't prove anything you got nothing.

 

[blr_p]

Reliance has zero facilities (no manufacturing, testing or r&d) for the same. Aircraft manufacture is very capital and knowledge intensive.

Here is a comment i saw on youtube

That company makes only the cone (pointed part) of the aircraft, the easiest part. There are more than 30 companies involved all making different different parts and they are assembled in one place, simple. If you don't understand this I can't help any.

L&T is making components for the arihant class (including the pressure water reactor) but they have the facilities, capital and r&d for such.
We definitely need more domestic defence firms, but not at the cost of defence.

Right

 

[blr_p]

If you read newspapers or online, you can see that the govt held back a lot of details in the court case to suit their narrative. Things like this defence secretary note were never put in front of the supreme court. The way the court handled it in haste shows something is wrong there too. possibly the judge got prejudiced in his judgement. he's a human after all and not a computer to make rational logical judgements. just because supreme court said nothing is wrong does not make it set in stone.

Point still stands the supreme court isn't seeing anything to investigate further. Quite frankly i'm surprised they even took it up as they have more important things to do than checking up on partisan agendas.

No middlemen? reliance is the middleman here.

Partner. Middelman is like a Qatrochhi or Christian Michel. Waiting to see how many heads roll for the westland scam. Not holding my breath.

The original deal was with DRDO / HAL for more than a 100 jets to be bought and built here for a lower cost.

The deal was Dassault gets to choose who the integrator will be. The expectation was HAL would get the contract.

After your "i can't do anything wrong" pm started meddling in it, the cost rose up threefold and now the deal is for 36 jets and less than a 100 jets to built here at Reliance factories who have no prior knowledge of building even an airplane leave alone jets. your pm is playing with the countries defense preparedness just to fill his friends bank balances. how ignorant do you bjp people have to be to see that? calling other people ignorant is crazy when you people cant see something as plain as this in front of your eyes.

Rafale was shortlisted in 2012. Why did the then govt drag its feet over it. You want to blame price rise since on Modi for pulling it off in 2016 ?

Listen to what Sinha says. Very clearly explains why we got 36 and what is left to do. Oh and should you be interested the earlier big picture show where this got debunked is here.

 

[blr_p]

Hilarious how many false equivlances are made.

Sure, Bofors scam is a realty just as much the Rafale scam is a realty. BJP is not the pinnacle of honesty that it trumpets itself to be and the problem is that BJP bhakts refuse to accept it and try to say its alright for BJP to indulge in corruption and crony capitalism.

Rafale scam is being alleged. Nothing has been shown so it is not a reality. The next statement says very clearly what the agenda here is. Couldn't get the BJP on any scam in the last four years so must get them on Rafale any way possible. Keep repeating it long enough and the clueless will actually believe it. Like they did with the previous govt and its assortment of scams.

This is not a question of honesty, the question is whether anything illegal has been found. And clearly there is nothing to show for that.

So, now BJP is in office how many people brought to book over those alleged scams ?

Not a single one!

So where those scams also scams. I've already said repeatedly that 2G was no scam and latest developments show its dead in the water.

So we see in this country, when there is no proof whatsoever, people run to the street and make lots of noise. Then it quietly goes away and the cycle repeats.

Same plot, different actors, Same result. Great business for all the media houses who cash in on the attention.

The same news papers like "The Hindu" that reported investigative pieces on Bofors back then are reporting on Rafale now. But suddenly, its a anti-national/communist news paper for doing that. The bottom line is that for people who support BJP, it all boils down to discrimination. They are actually fine with BJP being corrupt, but not congress and there are people who literally told that its because its a nationalistic party and its fine if they eat the tax payers money. One of these guys argues that since its only Reliance and BJP benefiting from the scam, he is fine with the corruption unlike with congress. They are literally gate-keeping corruption. This guy evades taxes using every possible fake document every year and he is fine that other more honest tax payers money is getting diverted because of corruption like this.

I don't consider this charade anti-national. Its plain business by the opposition like every other opposition party elsewhere. The difference is I know when to ignore it.

Nothing to see here folks.

 

[blr_p]

If this is the stated goal post now, why was the transfer of technology from Dasault to HAL( now Reliance) removed? Wouldn't that be a perfect boost to "Make in India" program?

transfer of technology cost was one of the reason why the deal was so delayed because dasualt kept on dragging feet

Dassault didn't drag its feet. We want tot, we can only get what they agree to. At the same time they want the contract. Not be surprised if there was under bidding going on. And then there is cost escalation few years later.

 

[jith77]

Can't prove anything you got nothing.

I meant that it was also a Gov to gov deal.

If there was nothing there, then there was no corruption in any military deal

 

[6pack]

Partner. Middelman is like a Qatrochhi or Christian Michel.

you mean like people who facilitate buying of arms between two countries and take their cut? by that definition, pm modi is like that middleman. wonder how much cut he got. there was no reason for him to go above everyone in the defense ministry and meddle in the dialog process and give the deal to a new company unless he was directly involved in facilitating the deal. does buying defense stuff like this even come under the pmo? whats the use of passing tenders etc if he does away with it all by traveling to france and just signing the deal on a whim?

i did not see that link. i doubt i will believe anything that comes out of any bjp spokesperson's mouth now. pm himself had said he will resign if no black money was found. guy is running for another term now. if he cannot keep his word and lie openly, there must be lots of other lies which we do not know about. everything they say is a lie now.

Rafale was shortlisted in 2012. Why did the then govt drag its feet over it.

wasn't the bjp saying it was a huge scam and stopped the congress alliance from buying the planes? if it was not a scam why was the deal scrapped by the bjp govt suddenly? bjp buying less amount of planes for more money looks more like a scam now.

 

[blr_p]

I meant that it was also a Gov to gov deal.

If there was nothing there, then there was no corruption in any military deal

Was bofors a g to g deal ?

Mirage was

 

[blr_p]

you mean like people who facilitate buying of arms between two countries and take their cut? by that definition, pm modi is like that middleman. wonder how much cut he got. there was no reason for him to go above everyone in the defense ministry and meddle in the dialog process and give the deal to a new company unless he was directly involved in facilitating the deal. does buying defense stuff like this even come under the pmo? whats the use of passing tenders etc if he does away with it all by traveling to france and just signing the deal on a whim?

The IAF shortlisted the winning candidate over a process that took ten long years.

i did not see that link. i doubt i will believe anything that comes out of any bjp spokesperson's mouth now. pm himself had said he will resign if no black money was found. guy is running for another term now. if he cannot keep his word and lie openly, there must be lots of other lies which we do not know about. everything they say is a lie now.

There are no BJP sokespeople in that discussion. Neither was there in the first.

I find it curious you wuld refuse to even consider links provided without any valid argument. Why ? because you already made up your mind. On the basis of what ? Some false narrative put out by the opposition.

wasn't the bjp saying it was a huge scam and stopped the congress alliance from buying the planes? if it was not a scam why was the deal scrapped by the bjp govt suddenly? bjp buying less amount of planes for more money looks more like a scam now.

How can BJP say it was a scam then when the IAF selected it in an open bidding process.

No, the people spreading FUD at that time were lobbyists for the contenders who lost. This bit is very difficult to untangle unless you know defense tech. The layperson hasn't got a chance

 

[Futureized]

We are leading to new industry controlled from fb and twitter ?

Its heading to Facebook typo companies and you cannot control same today,, including TOI

Just *** here.
TE is great place to take this anger out, but where are we heading again ?
This topic gets deleted and END OF ALL.. (LEGALLY).
We wont get anythign.. (*YAWING*)

URI's ARE getting banned,

Spoiler: NO SOURCES YET.. SORRY

lot of worth ones to read upone.. mentioned from reported auditors removed from industry.
watch gauthi newspapers.

/we all are aware of d0mains,
Regards,

sorrY on engish.
will make hindi iF anY0n3 reqUirez


DELETE THIS REPLY PLEASE. AS A REQUEST.

 

[Lord Nemesis]

you mean like people who facilitate buying of arms between two countries and take their cut? by that definition, pm modi is like that middleman. wonder how much cut he got. there was no reason for him to go above everyone in the defense ministry and meddle in the dialog process and give the deal to a new company unless he was directly involved in facilitating the deal. does buying defense stuff like this even come under the pmo? whats the use of passing tenders etc if he does away with it all by traveling to france and just signing the deal on a whim?

i did not see that link. i doubt i will believe anything that comes out of any bjp spokesperson's mouth now. pm himself had said he will resign if no black money was found. guy is running for another term now. if he cannot keep his word and lie openly, there must be lots of other lies which we do not know about. everything they say is a lie now.


wasn't the bjp saying it was a huge scam and stopped the congress alliance from buying the planes? if it was not a scam why was the deal scrapped by the bjp govt suddenly? bjp buying less amount of planes for more money looks more like a scam now.

For me, the cost of the planes is not that important. These are all custom deals and pricing can be debated.. The earlier deal during congress regime involved dumping the planes in parts and expecting HAL to take over from there. Its not necessarily a good thing. The new deal, required that some of the units are delivered in "ready to fly" condition with full support from Dassault to cover issues and also included a transfer of technology agreement. Debating over pricing for this is like debating the price of a Thali at different restaurants. A Thali could cost you anything from Rs 60 to over 2000. Cheapest is not necessarily the best and cost does not necessarily indicate quality. For example, I could prefer a Rs 300 Thali from one restaurant over a Rs 100 Thali from another. It all depends on what you are getting.

But the point to note is that even if the new deal is better, it is not because of who is power. These worthless politicians don't have the knowledge to make such decisions. The intricacies are worked out by the ground level staff and politicians are only good at messing with that for their own purposes. Usually, the less they mess with it, the better.

So the problem for me is that The PMO (Which essentially means PM in this case) decided to butt in and carried out parallel negotiations with his head up his ass. The work done by the ground level staff and their concerns were overridden. There is no due diligence. If there had been due diligence, the govt would have also ensured that that the offset contracts go to deserving entities and they would have ensured that Reliance defense does not get it even if it was a voluntary decision from Dassault. So, what sort of due diligence would have been there for the actual technical part of the contract. We already know that anybody from the ground level staff who worked on the contract and dissented had their dissent silenced and overridden.

As I said before, with the kind of credentials that Reliance defense has, they would not have passed a due diligence process at my own company for a mere game development contract and these people a offset contract worth thousands of crores without even fulfilling the pre-requisites.

 

[NotMyRealName]

...pm modi is like that middleman. wonder how much cut he got...

His cut is in the sequence that follows:

1. he gets put into power by big business, namely AA, MA, GA, etc. (they sponsored the party's PR and other electoral costs)
2. They ask for payback, in terms of govt. rules and sops (jio etc.) and business (defense contract)
3. he gets the french govt to approve their company as partner
4. all backs are scratched...

This is one example. Pretty much everything works similar to this. This is the SOP followed by the biggies like US/UK. We should be proud to be following the international standards of corp-govt. collusion.[DOUBLEPOST=1549818813][/DOUBLEPOST]

...even if it was a voluntary decision from Dassault...

Didn't the French first say that they had no say over the offset partner and it was forced down their throats by the Indian govt. (which we can now conclude was the PMO). And then they later covered it up, obviously due to pressure by our esteemed politicos...

 

[Lord Nemesis]

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...auses-in-rafale-deal/article26231793.ece/amp/

 

[6pack]

The earlier deal during congress regime involved dumping the planes in parts and expecting HAL to take over from there. Its not necessarily a good thing. The new deal, required that some of the units are delivered in "ready to fly" condition with full support from Dassault to cover issues and also included a transfer of technology agreement. Debating over pricing for this is like debating the price of a Thali at different restaurants. A Thali could cost you anything from Rs 60 to over 2000. Cheapest is not necessarily the best and cost does not necessarily indicate quality. For example, I could prefer a Rs 300 Thali from one restaurant over a Rs 100 Thali from another. It all depends on what you are getting.

Looks like both of us are missing vital points.

Quoting from NDTV - https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/what-is-rafale-deal-controversy-all-you-need-to-know-1810706

The original plan was that India would buy 18 off-the-shelf jets from France's Dassault Aviation, with 108 others being assembled in India by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited or HAL in Bengaluru.

The Modi-led BJP government, however, rowed back from the commitment of the last UPA government to buy 126 Rafales, saying the twin-engined planes would be too expensive and the deal fell through after nearly decade-long negotiations between India and France. There were a lot of hiccups over costs of the aircraft. However, faced with the dipping number of fighters and a pressing need to upgrade the Indian Air Force, Prime Minister Narendra Modi intervened and decided to buy 36 "ready-to-fly" fighters instead of trying to acquire technology from Dassault and make it in India.

The new deal is for all 36 jets in ready to fly condition. No new aircraft will be manufactured in India. That means no 126 aircraft. Just these 36 planes cost 58000 crores.

So reliance isnt going to do anything. they will sit on their ass and make money.

Nearly one- and-half years after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the proposal during a visit to Paris, finally in September 2016, India signed an inter-governmental agreement with France, dubbed as "Rafale deal", in which India will pay about Rs. 58,000 crore or 7.8 billion Euros for 36 off-the-shelf Dassault Rafale twin-engine fighters. About 15 per cent of this cost is being paid in advance. As per the deal, India will also get spares and weaponry, including the Meteor missile, considered among the most advanced in the world.

In November 2016, however, a political warfare over the Rafale deal began and the Congress accused the government of causing "insurmountable loss" of taxpayers' money by signing the deal worth Rs. 58,000 crores. It also claimed that the Anil Ambani-led Reliance Defence Limited had been unfairly picked to be the French firm's Indian partner. The Congress alleged that the cost of each aircraft is three times more than what the previous UPA had negotiated with France in 2012.

Officials say that due to national security reasons, there is a confidentiality clause in the Rafale deal which bars the buyer and seller from talking about the pricing, making it impossible for any government to reveal any detail about the defence deals.

What was the original deal price for 18 planes plus the rest 108 made in india is not known.

 

[6pack]

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...llow-and-self-implicating/article26225253.ece

PMO role in the negotiations hidden from the SC

Defenders of the government/BJP have said there is nothing more that the SC can examine even after new revelations by The Hindu. While it is now established that the PMO was playing a direct role in negotiations, the government had not revealed this to the apex court that rejected a plea for an investigation.

The government put the entire onus of the outcome of the negotiations on the INT, and told the SC that it “completed its negotiations and arrived at better terms relating to price, delivery and maintenance as compared to the MMRCA offer of M/s Dassault Aviation... The INT report indicated better terms and conditions arrived at as a result of negotiations as compared to 126 MMRCA case and achievements of Negotiating Team.” With the government now admitting to the PMO role, it is liable to further examination by the SC to decide whether the court decision was prejudiced.

 

[adventureguy]

Dassault didn't drag its feet. We want tot, we can only get what they agree to. At the same time they want the contract. Not be surprised if there was under bidding going on. And then there is cost escalation few years later.

exactly. transfer of technology made the deal worth it. dasault was dragging its feet but ultimately ready to transfer the technology. but then modi govt happened.