Health & Fitness COVID Vaccine Experience and your preference.

Which COVID Vaccine did you get or are planning to get

  • Already Received Covishield

    Votes: 101 67.3%
  • Already Received Covaxin

    Votes: 21 14.0%
  • Want to get Covishield

    Votes: 8 5.3%
  • Want to get Covaxin

    Votes: 4 2.7%
  • Want to get Sputnik V

    Votes: 5 3.3%
  • Want to get Pfizer,Moderna, other mRNA base Vaccines

    Votes: 12 8.0%
  • Already Received Pfizer , Moderna , other mRNA based vaccines

    Votes: 2 1.3%
  • Already Received Sputnik V

    Votes: 4 2.7%
  • Scared as hell to step out even for vaccine.

    Votes: 7 4.7%

  • Total voters
    150
There's no point in engaging with antivaxxers, climate change deniers, right-wingers etc.
These labels are dehumanizing, even if true in some cases, and even then, should be used with sensitivity. A person may be misinformed, or ignorant, but still, labels are not helpful and downright arrogant. Also, there is an element of ad-hominem attacks in labels, which is not needed for anyone with reason and evidence on their side. And if it is too much trouble, you are free to not respond instead of going personal.

You still have the right to block anyone and everyone including me but pretending that anyone talking about the potential for risks of vaccines in the face of withdrawals of vaccines by large manufacturers, or potential for complex adaptive systems (climate) being poorly understood as yet by humans can definitely be heard out, and labelling them does not come out as particularly scientific or useful. If anything, it makes the battle lines stronger, and the debate shallow. Not taking sides in the debate above, but everyone can do better than labelling.
 
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Dude, I applaud you for engaging for so long. I've taken approach of just blocking people like these. There's no point in engaging with antivaxxers, climate change deniers, right-wingers etc.
And yet you are still here lol and none of the people here qualify for any of those words except maybe right wingers but if you wanna debate on them. I can happily get into it but then people like you can only comment like this and run away when someone counters your points.
 
Dude, I applaud you for engaging for so long. I've taken approach of just blocking people like these. There's no point in engaging with antivaxxers, climate change deniers, right-wingers etc.
I am of the opinion that everyone has the right to opine on a topic. But actual decision making and policymaking should come only from subject experts and be backed by scientific evidence.
 
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I am of the opinion that everyone has the right to opine on a topic. But actual decision making and policymaking should come only from subject experts and be backed by scientific evidence.
Well said & thankfully those are the ones who are in majority till now at that level & hopefully remain so for the foreseeable future.
 
Yes but others also have right to ignore their opinion. Engaging with these people is pointless.
Well earlier it was not pointless but nowadays it seems overall mood of social media/online interactions has become more partisan & ppl rarely change their views just based on discussion/presented "real/verifiable facts".
 
I am of the opinion that everyone has the right to opine on a topic. But actual decision making and policymaking should come only from subject experts and be backed by scientific evidence.
I am with you on this, but there is significant room for global institutions that are today's decision makers on what constitutes evidence, to be free of economic and geopolitical influence and their own intrinsic bureaucracies before they will be able to pander to scientific truth ahead of inertia of how things currently are. And most of these bodies also desperately lack multidisciplinary skillsets needed to deal with the complexity that most disciplines now entail.

Most of all, the state of the art in medical treatment and prevention must over the decades ahead, move decidedly past the one-size-fits all approach of placebo-controlled-double-blind trials. It is not to say that this isn't currently the best approach in many cases, but as we head closer to personalized medicine, we likely will have to adopt radical new approaches to drug discovery and trials that recognize individual differences and address them instead of assuming homogeneity and accepting the risks for outliers. That is the risk that is most likely to play out when trials are rushed (whether for justified reasons or not).
 
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After Covishield, new study 'finds' side effects in Covaxin recipients
In observational study on Bharat Biotech's Covaxin recipients, about one-third of participants reported adverse events
 

If ICMR is right, it was shameful for BHU to conduct such a poor study. Though I can't be sure if ICMR is right.
ICMR's criticism seems quite lame, prima faci. Instead of looking at the researcher's definition of risk from a "do no harm" perspective, they seem to be just focused on defending the vaccine. I will take their criticism one by one:
1. They chose to highlight the absence of a control arm - when the population level prevalence of adverse events is already well established and can be used to compare the levels of such events among research subjects. This criticism seems quite deliberate nitpicking at best.
Further, this was an observational study, and these typically are without control arm - so the criticism reeks of bias.
2. ICMR mentions that it was not clear how frequently adverse events were reported. Yet, that information can easily be sought from researchers before using it as criticism.
3. The study tool was not consistent with the definition of “adverse events of special interest” that is globally accepted - This is highlighted as a critical issue without specifying why the tool is worse than the globally accepted definition. In any case, this does not imply that the definition was not reasonable.
4. Four, the responses of the participants were recorded one year after immunization without verification of any clinical records or physician examination - There is no reason to believe that anyone reporting their own adverse event experience will be biased, especially when that person already took the jab, which was a sign of faith in the narrative about vaccine efficacy. This criticism also seems like nitpicking.


Most importantly, ICMR has significant conflicts of interest as they jointly developed COVAXIN along with Bharat Biotech. An ethical institution/firm would immediately look to work with researchers that highlighted risks and work with them to do confirmatory studies/deeper studies instead of using whatever they can to just discredit researchers. BHU is by no measure a lame institution and their research should be analyzed without conflicts of interests, and in the interest of citizen without biases.

Here is the link to the published study, for those who are interested: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38740691/ I have summarized the conclusions which seem reasonable, as researchers just highlighted the need for larger further studies.

Conclusions: The patterns of AESIs developing after BBV152 differed from those reported with other COVID-19 vaccines as well as between adolescents and adults. With the majority of AESIs persisting for a significant period, extended surveillance of COVID-19-vaccinated individuals is warranted to understand the course and outcomes of late-onset AESIs. Serious AESIs might not be uncommon and necessitate enhanced awareness and larger studies to understand the incidence of immune-mediated phenomena post-COVID-19 vaccination. The relationship of AESIs with sex, co-morbidities, pre-vaccination COVID-19, and non-COVID illnesses should be explored in future studies.
 
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ICMR's criticism seems quite lame, prima faci. Instead of looking at the researcher's definition of risk from a "do no harm" perspective, they seem to be just focused on defending the vaccine. I will take their criticism one by one:
1. They chose to highlight the absence of a control arm - when the population level prevalence of adverse events is already well established and can be used to compare the levels of such events among research subjects. This criticism seems quite deliberate nitpicking at best.
2. ICMR mentions that it was not clear how frequently adverse events were reported. Yet, that information can easily be sought from researchers before using it as criticism.
3. The study tool was not consistent with the definition of “adverse events of special interest” that is globally accepted - This is highlighted as a critical issue without specifying why the tool is worse than the globally accepted definition. In any case, this does not imply that the definition was not reasonable.
4. Four, the responses of the participants were recorded one year after immunization without verification of any clinical records or physician examination - There is no reason to believe that anyone reporting their own adverse event experience will be biased, especially when that person already took the jab, which was a sign of faith in the narrative about vaccine efficacy. This criticism also seems like nitpicking.


Most importantly, ICMR has significant conflicts of interest as they jointly developed COVAXIN along with Bharat Biotech. An ethical firm would immediately look to work with researchers that highlighted risks and work with them to do confirmatory studies/deeper studies instead of using whatever they can to just discredit researchers. BHU is by no measure a lame institution and their research should be analysed without conflicts of interests, and in the interest of citizen without biases.
Yes, ICMR's conflict of interest and political control are big red flags. Some of the criticism is also not powerful. The only serious concern to me seems to be this, somewhat badly phrased "Two, it does not mention how frequently these adverse events were reported by the sample population to establish that they were associated with vaccination".

I don't see anywhere that BHU reported the frequency of occurrence in general population historically, e.g. "new skin or under-skin disorders" for adolescents, that they are saying were 10.5% in the vaccinated population as reported. If general population has a similar rate over the last 50 years, vaccine is obviously blameless. Maybe BHU did report the occurrence in general population, and the news reports chose to not include it in their articles, I'm not sure. The paper is apparently not in public domain.

Lack of control, is not a big deal, I agree, but for a different reason. The people who chose to not get vaccinated in the biggest calamity in living memory are not "normal" by any stretch of imagination. Either they have a known allergy, or their weird thinking exposes them to stimuli that makes them bad controls anyway.
The study tool was not consistent with the definition of “adverse events of special interest” that is globally accepted - This is highlighted as a critical issue without specifying why the tool is worse than the globally accepted definition. In any case, this does not imply that the definition was not reasonable.
This matters, but not in saying anything about the efficacy or safety of covaxin. It matters because if BHU used a unique definition that's not globally accepted, , news report's running away with the terminology "adverse events of special interest" is misleading.
The patterns of AESIs developing after BBV152 differed from those reported with other COVID-19 vaccines
Thanks for the link to the paper.
If BHU compared the events with other Covid vaccines, ICMR's criticism about controls is absolute nonsense.
The link in NIH is just a preview. I had read such a preview from another source. The abstract and preview, both don't answer the questions :

1. What is BHU's statement on prevalence of the reported effects in general population e.g. skin, menstrual issues, 0.1% strokes musculoskeletal disorders etc.? Us checking the prevalence separately won't make sense because the definition and methodology of the effects needs to be consistent.
2. How did the comparison fare between Covaxin and other vaccines, that BHU claims to have studied?

I lost access to the research material that I had due to my institute and job earlier. In the absence of the full paper, I can only say some questions raised by ICMR are very valid.
 
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